To me as a non-native speaker, French oi and ui sound just the same. However, these are now digraphs, and you need the "i" in there to get the sound. "Jong" would not sound like "juin", but like "long".
I guess one could argue that the vowels in jong and iollet were meant to be digraphs, but then someone else could say they were meant to be "u". This basically means we'd be ignoring these two months since we assume the writing on the page is unreliable.
I've been searching through german almanacs for month names and I have a few thoughts. (You are not allowed to view links.
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Firstly, August is
universally referred to as a word with "Augst" from any german document from ~1400 - ~1600. That includes "Augst" on its own, as well as "Augstmon", "Augstmond", "Augstmonat", "Augstmaent", "Augstmō". Due to this, I find it more likely our "Augst" is the germanic name, as opposed to an obscure French/swiss dialect that has re-introduced the g into "Aoust".
I did find You are not allowed to view links.
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Something interesting happens post 1500, though. The german names begin to be listed alongside the latin names in these lists. Clearly for some reason both sets of month names became relevant in society. We might be looking for an obscure dialect when we should be looking for an appropriate multicultural city where many languages were commonplace.
Either way, there were certainly learned people who understood and chose to display both the german and latin names. Perhaps somewhere the same thing was done with french/german.
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(20-02-2026, 01:40 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There is Sauvaget's astrolabe, but iirc, we don't know where that's from.
I found it on JSTOR, for what its worth. The original black and white photo was 1 of 12 images, including other true colour images and different angles. Unfortunately it does just say "France" for its creation site.
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It also had the month ring seperated for a photo, so you can see each month clearly.
(10-04-2026, 02:06 PM)eggyk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Due to this, I find it more likely our "Augst" is the germanic name, as opposed to an obscure French/swiss dialect that has re-introduced the g into "Aoust".
It's not unlikely to find it in Eastern French/Swiss dialects, probably because of the Germanic influence.
Many instances on Google books:
You are not allowed to view links.
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"mois d'augst , l'an mil quatre cents et trent..."
(10-04-2026, 03:12 PM)eggyk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I found it on JSTOR, for what its worth. The original black and white photo was 1 of 12 images, including other true colour images and different angles. Unfortunately it does just say "France" for its creation site.
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So... I didn't realise this before, but the Sauvaget astrolabe actually appears to have "Engletiere" written in the middle. "Engletiere" does seem to be an old variant of the word Angleterre (England) in french.
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It was only visible at a different angle or when the disc is seperated, and wasn't visible in our original image. Could the astrolabe actually have been from the normandy region, guernsey/jersey or actually Anglo-norman england? It may have just been assumed to be from france because of the french words.
(15-04-2026, 03:27 PM)eggyk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view."Engletiere" does seem to be an old variant of the word Angleterre (England) in French.
Unusual spelling. It appears in:
- the 13th century chronicle (CHRONIQUE D’ERNOUL ET DE BERNARD LE TRÉSORIER) : You are not allowed to view links.
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- the 14th century Œuvres de Froissart You are not allowed to view links.
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etc.
It's not listed in Anglo-Norman variant spellings: Angleterre; Engleter, Engletere, Engletterre; Engliter, Englitere, Engliterre in this dictionary: You are not allowed to view links.
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(15-04-2026, 04:17 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Unusual spelling. It appears in:
- the 13th century chronicle (CHRONIQUE D’ERNOUL ET DE BERNARD LE TRÉSORIER) : You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- the 14th century Œuvres de Froissart You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
etc.
It's not listed in Anglo-Norman variant spellings: Angleterre; Engleter, Engletere, Engletterre; Engliter, Englitere, Engliterre in this dictionary: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Interesting. I also came across both ernoul and Froissart on the munchener library while I was looking. Although I came across Ernoul accidentally with "Angletiere", Engletiere is used there. There are a decent amounts of hits for Engletiere on the library, which is why I said that it seems to be a real variant:
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Froissart example:
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Ernoul example:
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Either way, what other reason would someone have for inscribing England on their astrolabe unless they are nearby?
If you break the word down, -tiere is a variant of terre, meaning land. <Not animals!>
Where was that variant used?
(15-04-2026, 06:37 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If you break the word down, -tiere is a variant of terre, meaning land. <Not animals!>
Where was that variant used?
Spanish has the added "i" in "tierra". Unlike Latin, Italian "terra", French "terre".
Modern day Picard/Rouchi language (northern french dialect) seems to spell it
tière to this day, too?
Puns d'tière for standard French
pommes de terre here in You are not allowed to view links.
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tière, p223
pun d'tière or simply
peunetière)
Edit: Funnily enough, in Spanish we don't use the
tierra spelling in the name
Inglaterra