The Voynich Ninja

(17-03-2016, 12:58 AM)Oocephalus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.MarcoP:

Quote:That line of dots is strongly suggestive of a salamander or newt, “stellio” (“starred”) in Latin.

...
As for the line of dots on the back, this is also seen in the VMS scorpio, although it is difficult to see under the green paint (see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. about this). They don't seem to be the same animal, though.

Davidsch and Ellie have been discussing a manuscript (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., England, 1411-12) that includes a lizard-like green Scorpio with dots. See You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..

Quote:So what do you guys think? 

This may seem odd, since no one appears to have mentioned anything to this effect, but here goes: It's my belief that these animals represent geologic formations within the Red Sea, being the green area they are drawn within. The diagram is oriented east up.

The yellow animal is situated such that only the head qualifies as being in the sea, corresponding to the location of the Hanish Islands, currently belonging to Yemen. The rest of the body denotes a flood plain on the mainland in Eritrea, Djibouti and Ethiopia, which coincides with the East African Rift Zone, and the tail of this animal resembles the Awash river also located in this area.

Red is the Farasan Islands belonging to Saudi Arabia, Blue is the Eritrean Dahlak Archipelago across from it. If you go to Google Maps and ignore the islands and look at the underwater rifts instead, they resemble the creatures even moreso, including forked or trident tails. Note that recently, more islands are dotting the Red Sea due to volcanic activity and so there may not currently exist an exact match insofar as the look of these animals in comparison with these archipelagos. The painting over of parts of the animals may indicate that they have indeed changed over time, perhaps from the time of the document(s) copied to the time of the creation/finishing of MS408.

The other creature resembling the blue one, but with the dots, is located near Berenice Troglodytica  in Egypt, there are islands here too, but again if you look at the sea floor you see it is dotted with a straight line of what are probably underwater volcanic mountains. Or, since this animal is not drawn in the water, it could reflect similar land-based formations, or perhaps it is describing a time when this area was not covered with water.

The fish is the rift in the center of the Red Sea, ending about midway of the Sudan shoreline, where the deepest part of the rift resembles the fish's tail. You can see it curves into Saudi Arabia just as the fish does in the diagram. Again ignore the islands in that area and note the shape of the rift where it meets land, again this matches well with the diagram, two oddly shaped areas on either side making up the mouth of the fish.

The nymph appears to be denoting the formations in the land to the west of this area. Note especially the nymph's right hand (to the left) and the water pouring down on it appear to match the light areas within the darker areas to the left of the rift on the satellite view. The fact that the nymph is still situated within the water and not outside of it seems to tell of a time when this area was flooded.

Other areas not corresponding to the current outline of the Red Sea seem to fit with geologic formations on the shore that can be imagined to have once held water, and could reflect a time of higher water levels or shifting of plates such that the water would lay differently than it does now. The gulfs of Aqaba and Suez are not shown in this diagram.

Strabo mentions some of these places in his Geographica, and also wrote of shifting lands being responsible for changes in water bodies.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Have a look around by zooming out to see all the other locations I've mentioned and let me know what you think of this idea.
[url=https://www.google.ca/maps/@27.5785532,37.4077294,143619m/data=!3m1!1e3][/url]

Linda

Since I started this thread in my early days as a little Voynichero, my views on this section of the manuscript have changed quite a bit. I'm now writing a paper about this, but I'll summarize. I think these images are highly synthetic, meaning that they say several things at once, and that they contain various cultural influences. I see, simplifying things a bit, three layers of meaning:

1) Structuring narrative related to Hellenistic myth. This layer allows all the figures of the page to tell a story. In this case, it is the myth of Scylla. Explained in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Note that I wrote this before I knew about the other layers.
2) Astronomical layer: each figure represents a classical constellation. In this I follow Diane O'Donovan, but if I'm not mistaken she sees references to individual stars and a mixture of Hellenistic and post-Hellenistic elements.
3) "Egypt" layer. I take the imagery to have originated in Hellenistic Egypt, which explains the mixture of influences . This is the part of the imagery I have studied the least at the moment, but it's definitely there. This is possibly what you are talking about as well. I hope Diane will read your post, since she's been studying this matter for much longer, and also writes about Yemen and the Red Sea.


This is what I suspect about the geographical information on this folio. I wonder if you see at as somehow complementary to what you propose:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. likely represent the constellation Triangulum in layer (2). Hyginus writes about Triangulum: "Some have said that it pictures the position of Egypt; others, that of Aethiopa and Egypt where the Nile marks their boundaries." Now the boundary between Ethiopia and Egypt, whatever that meant for Hyginus, that is something that belongs to layer (3).

The nymph below the triangle represents the Dolphin constellation on layer (2). Dolphins live in the Red Sea as well - layer (3)

Moving up again, the nymph that is lying on her back with the ring likely refers to the city of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. 

Finally, on top, this nymph either refers to Canopus in the Nile delta or otherwise the area of Fayum Oasis. There are arguments for both, though I haven't gotten to the bottom of it yet. Trying to finish my paper on layer (2) first

By the way, Linda. Not many people will go as far as Yemen to explain Voynich imagery. I wonder how you came to consider this rather specific faraway location?

Linda,
While I cannot find any particular points of agreement with your approach to that particular image in the manuscript, you will be happy to know that you are not entirely alone in mentioning the Red Sea, Egypt, geographic matter and the Yemen.

It would be exhausting to list the posts in which I've gone into those things at length, but if you search 'Yemen' on voynichimagery you'll find about sixty posts.

I always feel a certain pleasure when I find that others have independently done work which I can rely on rather than 're-inventing the wheel'.  Hope you do too.

Just btw, the style in which those animals are drawn, and even their disposition around the lake, pond, or sea are closely comparable to traditional imagery from southern India.  Even the multi-tailed one.  Cheers.

Hi Koen,

Thanks for your reply. I definitely see layers of meaning in the diagrams, even if it was not meant to portray what I have interpreted from it.

I could see how Scylla could being involved since the myth involves seafaring rock related dangers, but the Sicily aspect of the story wouldn't fit my interpretation. However perhaps that location identification is wrong since the connection to Sicily comes from Thrinacia being related to threes, perhaps it is the three sets of islands in a triangle in the Red Sea instead of a triangular island in the Mediterranean? Could that connect back to the Triangulum idea you mentioned? Ethiopia and Egypt do fit better with my suggested portrayal, although to me that area is described on other pages and this one seems to me to concentrate mostly on areas to the east.

Regarding the other locations you noted, unfortunately they don't match mine, as I see this page as describing travel starting from northwestern India, being the Himalayas and the Indus river portrayed in and under the "umbrella" and I believe the first two nymphs are indicating the Gulfs of Kutch and Khambhat. In this photo You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. the Indus looks a lot like the waterfall in the diagram including being off to the side of the "umbrella" and in closeness of overall shape (buttocks?). Re the ring, I think it is a directional aide, in that, if you draw a line in the direction to which the jewel it is pointing (i.e. keeping the gulf in sight as you are leaving and then keep that line going forward, as indicated by the nymph pointing in the opposite direction) then that line will bring you to the Gulf of Aden, then on to the Red Sea. Scylax of Caryanda evidently took such a trip in 518BC from the Kabul River to the Gulf of Suez, and reported to Darius 30 months later.

Too bad our interpretations don't gel. Why do you feel the ring nymph is indicating Oxyrhynchus, and why Canopus or Faiyum? Star related? [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyrhynchus][/url]

---

(01-07-2016, 06:17 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.By the way, Linda. Not many people will go as far as Yemen to explain Voynich imagery. I wonder how you came to consider this rather specific faraway location?

It came about from following the locations I see portrayed. You would pass Yemen if you were coming from India towards Egypt via the Gulf of Aden and the Red Sea. I didn't see exact reference to Yemen, though, it is only that they now own the islands of which I was speaking.

(02-07-2016, 11:41 AM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Linda,
While I cannot find any particular points of agreement with your approach to that particular image in the manuscript, you will be happy to know that you are not entirely alone in mentioning the Red Sea, Egypt, geographic matter and the Yemen.

It would be exhausting to list the posts in which I've gone into those things at length, but if you search 'Yemen' on voynichimagery you'll find about sixty posts.

I always feel a certain pleasure when I find that others have independently done work which I can rely on rather than 're-inventing the wheel'.  Hope you do too.

Just btw, the style in which those animals are drawn, and even their disposition around the lake, pond, or sea are closely comparable to traditional imagery from southern India.  Even the multi-tailed one.  Cheers.

Hi Diane,

Thanks for the imagery info. I take the entire quire to be talking about how all waters are mixed up in each other, and perhaps Indian imagery in the Red Sea is adding another aspect of that connectivity.

I did think Socotra was shown as the 'o' next to the point of the tub the third nymph is standing in, which I thought represented the current Somalian coast, as there is no pigment in it to indicate it is a water body. The 'o' seems to be drawn on top of the '8' glyph beside it, which is why I thought perhaps it was not a letter at all but part of the diagram. But this diagram and the one below it are harder to reconcile to my theory due to the blue pigments involved, so am looking into what they could be meant to portray. Also can't decide about what seems to be additions to that particular nymph's midriff. Have you touched on that in your writings?

Linda

First of all, I'm really glad to see that someone else is studying the manuscript as documenting the eastern routes. When I started reading voynich research about a year ago, I wad quite surprised to see that Diane had been about the only one to look that way for many years. Since then my own findings have also pointed to eastern trade routes on the one hand and Hellenistic Egypt on the other.

My ideas about the bathing section is basically that it teaches about relevant geography and Egyptian aspects like the flooding of the Nile, using knowledge that would have been known to any educated Greek of the time. In this case, constellations and their associated myths. 

That is, at least, how I explain the strange nature of the imagery. Because one can say that a beast represents an island, but why not just draw the island? So my idea is that the core information, which is useful and practical, has been blended with mythological concepts for didactic purposes.

I the paper I am writing I am trying to expose this didactic layer. To find out what is actually meant, that's something else... hence my ideas about any geographical aspects referred to are only in their infancy and likely wrong

The nymph you mention, the third one standing in the tub, is the only one I haven't been able to link to a constellation. Judging by her position between others she could be Aries, though I don't see how the imagery would hint to that. I'm also not sure which location it would refer to...

(03-07-2016, 11:34 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm really glad to see that someone else is studying the manuscript as documenting the eastern routes.

Hi Koen,
Not really, although maybe partially. What I see in quire 13 is a variety of water routes that encompass Europe, Asia and Africa. I see this page as outlining the eastern limit of these routes.

(05-07-2016, 05:22 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(03-07-2016, 11:34 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm really glad to see that someone else is studying the manuscript as documenting the eastern routes.

Hi Koen,
Not really, although maybe partially. What I see in quire 13 is a variety of water routes that encompass Europe, Asia and Africa. I see this page as outlining the eastern limit of these routes.

Ah, I see. Yes, that's only partially. Do you have any ideas about the peculiar way the water routes are represented? I.e why it's not just a map?