The Voynich Ninja

I wonder if this is a 'pond creature' in the Vatican (Rossiana) copy of the Balneis Puteolanis:

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(30-04-2016, 02:19 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I wonder if this is a 'pond creature' in the Vatican (Rossiana) copy of the Balneis Puteolanis:

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Interesting link, René.

Looks like the inscription on the towers reads Dominus Sanctus Spiritus.


It's often a challenge to figure out medieval animals, since many were drawn very strangely. I'm wondering if this one might be a pig. It has a shortish curled tail and prominent teats (which tend to be more visible on pigs than on dogs). Hard to tell and who knows why either dog or pig would be in that particular position in relation to the pond.


When I was in Mexico, in a very rural area (the people lived in wood and corrugated metal shanty shacks smaller than most living rooms), the pigs wandered free the same as dogs and lived pretty much as a dog would (except not as long).

(01-05-2016, 03:31 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm wondering if this one might be a pig.

Ah, of course you're right.
The word next to the animal is barely readable but seems to be the same as the title of the page, which is
Balneum de 'scrufa'.  All baths in the 'balneis' have there own name, usually named after a person.

Now Latin 'scrufa' means nothing to me, but Italian 'scrofa' means sow, female pig.

The animal is just there because of the name.
It's hard to see how a similar association could apply in the case of the Voynich MS illustration, with its many different
animals.

It's a language hint mnemonic!

This could be just coincidental.....

One of the baths treated in the Balneis Puteolanis is called the "balneum tripergulae" with minor variations.
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This bath really existed but was destroyed in the 16th Centurry.
According to legend, this is where Christ descended into hell and stayed there for 3 days, after which he closed the gates.
This is reflected in the image in the above wiki link, but also in the MS in the Vatican:
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In the two other MS copies known to me, there are various creatures in the water too:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.  (note their tails)


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Ellie already proposed that the woman and the fish on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. represent the mouth of hell. Now we also have an association with what seem like fabulous animals in the water (though I can't quite understand how they fit in, in the Balneis MSs).
The nymph isn't a good representation for Christ, but Koen already suggested that such a thing could be concievable. Just tying all theories together here....
By the way, this is the page with the cross on top.

In summary, no idea if there is something to this, or it is, indeed, just coincidental.

(09-05-2016, 08:42 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The nymph isn't a good representation for Christ, but Koen already suggested that such a thing could be concievable. 

Hehehe, turning the tables. I'm not sure if it would be possible for Christ to be depicted as a woman. So far - in the VM as well as in other MS's - I've only seen this in constellations based on myth. I.e. as soon as someone becomes the abstract thought of a constellation, apparently for some cultures is was conceivable to depict the body as female, no matter the actual gender of the person. This is not something I'm making up, as I've shown examples in the other thread of the constellations "Heracles" ans "Perseus" with female genitalia.

The Christ is a whole other story though. Is he a constellation, or do you think the VM authors saw him as such an abstract mythological concept that he might as well be pictured as a woman? Wouldn't that be blasphemy?

Well, all this can be explained in several different ways.
Gates of the underworld were apparently believed to be in on near lake Avernus.
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Who knows who, beside Christ, went down there. Could have been any nymph.
But as I already clearly wrote, I am not at all convinced of this. I think it is interesting
to see these weird animals in the waters of the Balneis.

This one took me a long time (and many Metamorphoses reading sessions), but I think this folio tells the first chapter of book XIV: the transformation of Scylla. The story runs from the bottom to the top. 

For the pond creatures specifically, they are mentioned when Glaucus, a fish tailed deity, arrives in "the halls of Circe, daughter of the Sun, filled with transformed beasts".

So the pond creatures are random "transformed beasts". Good luck identifying those. 

When I have some time tomorrow I'll write out the analysis of the whole page.

(09-05-2016, 08:42 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Ellie already proposed that the woman and the fish on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. represent the mouth of hell. Now we also have an association with what seem like fabulous animals in the water (though I can't quite understand how they fit in, in the Balneis MSs).
The nymph isn't a good representation for Christ, but Koen already suggested that such a thing could be concievable. Just tying all theories together here....
By the way, this is the page with the cross on top.

In summary, no idea if there is something to this, or it is, indeed, just coincidental.

Hello Rene,
the hypothesis I would make is that the dragons in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. represent the devil defeated by Christ. The gates of hell are clearly represented (as a trapdoor, or an open grave). This dragons are next to the gates of hell, out of the water, and they parallel images of Christ in other sources:
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What makes the scene different is the water background: the sea, according to the caption “mare”.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is clearly related with Bodmer 135 (the building and the posture of Christ are almost identical). I see these possible explanations for the differences:

• the author misunderstood the animals interpreting them as related to the balneological subject (I think this is unlikely);
  
• the author deliberately turned the devil-dragons into sea animals, crabs etc peacefully swimming together.
  

The illustration in BNF Lat 8161 is no more recognizable as Christ entering hell: the gates of hell and the dragon/devils are gone. It's more like “Christ strolling on the beach”. The BNF ms is less consistent with the text, since it fails to depict hell which is explicitly mentioned. So I think it can be seen as a “corruption” of what we see in Bodmer 135.

In general, the idea of a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as an explanation for the Balneological section seems interesting to me. It could explain some of the weirdness of the images. Also, the naked women could be interpreted as souls.
Of course, female characters also visited the underworld: e.g. Juno and Proserpina (both discussed in the Metamorphoses). Anyway, if this is the underworld, I doubt it can be the Christian or classical one.

For the specific detail of the “pond creatures”, their amphibious nature seems to me particularly relevant, since it is rather uncommon.

Thanks Marco.

As an interesting side detail, BNF Lat 8161 and Bodmer 135 used to be together in the library of the Aragonese kings of Naples.
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