The Voynich Ninja

(25-03-2025, 08:04 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The reverse has a wax seal (just as a stamp - it does not seal anything) with the initials A.G.
This matches (coincidentally?) Aldo Gritti.

So most probably, Salani bought a prop relating to a Voynich-themed book written in 2012.

JKP has been teasing for years that he may have figured out where this thing came from. At this point, I'd be very surprised if it doesn't relate to the book though.

Even if there were other documents written in Voynichese, and if any survived, and if they were discovered, and if the discoverer were sufficiently familiar with the VMS or sufficiently curious to bring them to wider attention, and if they were then digitised and made available to Voynich scholars (a lot of ifs) the likelihood is they wouldn't bring us any closer to solving the VMS. We already have a huge corpus - much larger than most ciphers or untranslated writing systems - along with labels and pictures. More of the same is unlikely to help.

Probably the only things that would really help would be a Rosetta stone, containing a translation of Voynichese to a language we know, or some kind of crib telling us how to translate/decode Voynichese.

(25-03-2025, 09:54 AM)Pepper Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Probably the only things that would really help would be a Rosetta stone, containing a translation of Voynichese to a language we know, or some kind of crib telling us how to translate/decode Voynichese.

I like to imagine that somewhere there are still some documents / notes left by the people who created the MS. Drafts or something similar. Any such thing would be a 'lucky find' which could lead to a breakthrough, but of course this is just a dream.

If such material still exists somewhere, it should be relatively close to the place of origin of the MS.
This is perhaps the main reason why I wrote elsewhere that the Vatican is not a likely place for this. Rome is way too far south.

(25-03-2025, 09:37 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.JKP has been teasing for years that he may have figured out where this thing came from. At this point, I'd be very surprised if it doesn't relate to the book though.

It is possible. The book appeared around the time of the Mondragone conference. The author(s) of the book  employed some unfriendly tactics to draw attention. The less said about it the better.

(25-03-2025, 01:16 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If such material still exists somewhere, it should be relatively close to the place of origin of the MS.
This is perhaps the main reason why I wrote elsewhere that the Vatican is not a likely place for this. Rome is way too far south.

Why do you think that such material should be relatively close to the place of origin of the MS?

In my experience, unfortunately, documents seem to travel far and wide from their place of origin. Documents produced within a religious institution could very easily find their way to the Vatican.

From my experience I can think of an enciphered letter of Francesco Sforza in a Moscow archive. I can think of Marcolino Barbavara's enciphered letters in a Paris library. I recently saw an advertisement for 1450 Milanese enciphered letters for sale on the open market for €800; they could have been purchased by anybody in the world. There is a cipher ledger and enciphered letters of the Avignon Popes in the Vatican archives. The Voynich manuscript itself is in America. Unfortunately, documents seem often to find their way to unexpected places which makes them that much harder to find.

Undoutbedly, the Vatican has a treasure of material related to early diplomatic ciphers. 

On the other hand, my personal experience from visiting archives is that the archivists are very familiar with the material they have, and there is barely anything that has not yet been browsed by at least several people.

Discoveries are made still today, but it is getting rare.

On the subject of discoveries, I find this one fascinating

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Dee's works being found in a secret draw then used as pie dish liners by a maid(!). Survived the great fire of London even though the chest perished. Mr. Jones's wife re-marrying after his death to someone who just so happened to be acquainted with a collector of this sort of stuff and thought he might find them interesting.. some stars really had to align for these works to survive.   

.. and they were some very expensive pies!

(25-03-2025, 09:54 AM)Pepper Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Even if there were other documents written in Voynichese, and if any survived, and if they were discovered, and if the discoverer were sufficiently familiar with the VMS or sufficiently curious to bring them to wider attention, and if they were then digitised and made available to Voynich scholars (a lot of ifs) the likelihood is they wouldn't bring us any closer to solving the VMS. We already have a huge corpus - much larger than most ciphers or untranslated writing systems - along with labels and pictures. More of the same is unlikely to help.

I both agree and disagree with this. Even if we were to double or triple our corpus of Voynichese text, it wouldn't bring us closer to a solution and we would still be left with the same questions we have now. 

On the other hand though, any new Voynichese document we'd find has a high likelihood of being special.

Either it's a different document written in Voynichese. In that case it could be accompanied by drafts or notes giving us insights in the process, as Rene says.
OR, it could be pages that have once been removed from the MS itself. We know that there are many, from various sections. Maybe even entire sections we have nothing left of. The thing with these removed pages is that they did not fall out randomly. They were removed for a reason. If you're desperate to have Kircher solve your unreadable book, do you send him some generic pages or the pages you think that, for whatever reason, are most likely to lead to a solution?

Could there be more documents written in voynichese ?
Quick review of the main ones.

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Erwin Panofsky speculated about a 2nd volume of the vms but also speculated it had not survived.

"That it is probably the surviving one of two volumes: the plant and star half of the work which doubtless included also beasts and stones"
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There are the missing folios.

"The following 14 folios are missing from the MS:

    f12, apparently cut out, stub still visible;
    folios 59-64, three bifolios that should have been in the centre of quire nr. 8 (13);
    fol. 74, cut out, stub still visible. Cut marks are clearly visible on f75r;
    Quire 16, which appears to have consisted of one bifolio composed of f91 and f92;
    Quire 18, which appears to have consisted of one bifolio composed of f97 and f98;
    folios 109 and 110, that should have been in the centre of quire nr. 20."
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There is also supposed to be a copy of some folios made on behalf of Barschius that were sent to Kircher.

The letter of Georgius Barschius to Athanasius Kircher (1637)
"And so I ordered a certain old book to be transcribed in part, with the writing closely imitated" -Barschius
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Notes, letters by Barschius, Marci, Mnišovský, Kircher.
ReneZ post #4 in the current thread - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

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Notes, documents from Original creators
"I like to imagine that somewhere there are still some documents / notes left by the people who created the MS. Drafts or something similar"
ReneZ post #23 in the current thread  - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(25-03-2025, 02:58 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I both agree and disagree with this. Even if we were to double or triple our corpus of Voynichese text, it wouldn't bring us closer to a solution and we would still be left with the same questions we have now.

We would be able to compare various properties of another Voynichese document with those of the manuscript. Example scenarios:

1. The document shares a scribe but the text patterns are much different. Increases the probability of the text either being meaningless or of there being multiple enciphering schemes.
2. The document has an astrology image but the text patterns are a closer match to the herbal section. Increases the probability of the text and images having no connection.
3. Carbon-dating places the document 60 years before or after the manuscript and it has a new scribe, but similar text patterns. Would tell us that the system was in consistent use across multiple generations.
4. Document has either all the same scribes as the manuscript but a dating offset, or a number of new scribes and a similar dating. Would help narrow down probabilities for the answers to questions like, "is it an organization or a group of close colleagues/friends?"

(25-03-2025, 01:27 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Why do you think that such material should be relatively close to the place of origin of the MS?

I think it's most likely that any remaining documents - if they exist - are in the possession of private citizens or families that inherited them but never bothered to look at them or get rid of them, and don't run a personal museum. In an unlabeled box among many in a cluttered attic somewhere. If they were a travelling collector, they'd have looked at what they collected and better organized it.