(12-04-2024, 07:33 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (12-04-2024, 07:13 PM)proto57 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (12-04-2024, 07:03 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Rich
You are welcome to consider everybody or nobody an expert on the Voynich manuscript.
On one level this is a semantic question i.e. what is your definition of expert. I clearly have a more exacting standard for what I consider makes an expert. Personally, I prefer, as I have said, to talk about specialists rather than experts. I want to ask what is the person's specialism and what do they know about the subject.
Again, we are actually in total agreement on the point of individual definition of who would constitute an expert or not. No argument on that, and there never was, from me. I do think your standard is "more exacting" than mine, and that of many, as you would say this person should be able to read and identify the Voynich (If forget your exact words), and that's great. So specialists, experts, knowledgeable people, and so on... everyone's prerogative, and I respect yours, of course.
But to reiterate, this issue does not alter my points here, or on my blog post, one iota, and only demonstrates those points in action. But I would ask, while I have you, would you consider a book cataloger an "expert on the Voynich"? Because on my list of pre-C14 experts, all are now off the list except for Lehmann-Haupt, book cataloger. He remains (well I think Rene introduced another, not in D'Imperio) the only pre-C14 dating "person" who guessed the age of those tests. If he is off the list, the tally is zero... or at best, one.
Would you retain his opinion? Its a genuine question, not trying to be annoying. There is a reason I ask.
Rich.
My point is that one may have specialists in related disciplines to Voynich research, but I don't think there are yet people who could be said to be expert on the Voynich manuscript.
I would have to know more about Lehmann-Haupt to determine what precise knowledge they have to bear. There are certainly specialists out there with relevant knowledge to the Voynich manuscript, but I suspect very few of them have been consulted. Generally, the individuals opinions we rely on are the ones who come to Voynich research not those we seek out, which gives us a very limited pool of expertise.
Have you consulted relevant specialists on forgery? If you had a number of specialists in forgery who endorse your analysis I for one would find that persuasive.
As for Lehmann-Haupt, his credentials, career, experience and work are clearly outlined in his Wikipedia page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellmut_Lehmann-Haupt
It is really impressive. I won't copy the whole thing here, it is unnessarary. For the sake of my question, and your wanting to know more before answering my question, I've linked it. He is mentioned two times in D'Imperios, on 2.3.4, where he opines on a southern Italian origin. As for his opinion on dating of the Voynich, that is recalled on 2.4.2, "Helmut Lehmann-Haupt (bibliographical consultant to H.P. Kraus) stated in a letter to Tiltman dated 1 November, 1963, that, there is a near agreement on the date of the CIPHER manuscript as around, or a little after, the year 1400".
I've not seen the letter, perhaps Rene or someone else has a copy to share. So I don't know who the others are, that he feels in "near agreement" with, as there he is practically, or entirely alone in coming to this opinion. By the time of that letter, Panofsky had modified his opinion to the early part of the 16th century, so a hundred years later. Perhaps Haupt was in "agreement" with others through letters or discussion, people who have not made it into the historical record.
So that's his resume, and his dating opinion, making him the (virtually) sole person who dated the Voynich to the time of the (eventual) C14 results. I know that, according to your definitions, he cannot be a Voynich expert... maybe a specialist? In any case, what do you think? Would you retain his opinion, or reject it?
As for, "Have you consulted relevant specialists on forgery? If you had a number of specialists in forgery who endorse your analysis I for one would find that persuasive."
A few things about that: No, I am not aware of the specific qualifications of those individuals who have and/or do believe the Voynich is a modern forgery, as I do. But you see, your asking that is another example of the use and misuse of expert testimony. I mean, of dozens of experts (specialists, knowledgeable, however you describe them) believe the Voynich is of a half-dozen other years of origin than you do, and they do, then wouldn't any such specialist who believed the Voynich a modern fake be similarly dismissed? For instance, to use poor Charles Singer again, you would argue that, although he is a specialist in the History of the Herbal and the history of medicine, and more, he was wrong in his dating and origin for the Voynich. I mean, you believe the Voynich is over a hundred years older than he did.
Do you see my point? It is this same issue again, playing out, again. The use and misuse of experts, to fulfill a preconception. On the surface, your request seems in the line of, "If the right person tells me the Voynich is a forgery, then I will think it is a forgery". But the right people have told you a great many things other than what you and others think it is, and all have been rejected. Some pretty amazing people... whom we are now to believe are not "experts" in their fields, nor the Voynich.
So what, exactly, would be the point? Wouldn't you... and again, you have every right to do so, as you do for me, or anyone else... to judge their opinions on your own standards? What would you need to see from this person to know that it is a forgery? I would say, "what more" would you need? Not sure if you understand me here, but that is an important point: Your request, compared with how so much opinion has been given, from so many capable people, tells us that "qualifications" are not really what is being sought.
In any case, I will say that, indirectly, the standards and descriptions of forgery throughout history, and the way they are presented, and excused, and promoted... as described and analyzed throughout history, by a great many experts (for you, specialists?) in the field of art and literary forgery, describe almost perfectly all the observed traits of the Voynich. In my lecture at the 2017 NSA Historical Cipher Conference, I listed the most common characteristics of forgery, which I had gleaned from learning all I could about the history of forgery. Here is the list:
1) Elicits multiple, widely contrary expert opinions
2) Has poor, contrary and/or missing versions of provenance.
3) Contains anachronistic content
4) Owner/seller lies about provenance
5) Contains incorrect uses of iconography
6) Improper tools, methods, and/or materials used
7) It looks "too new”
8) There is a reluctance to produce, and/or test, original
9) Copy of illustrations from books and catalogs
10) Financial or other incentive is offered for positive opinion
11) Claimed disappearance of original
The Voynich, arguably, hits to some degree, all of these except for #11. Most forgeries hit maybe two or three, that is a very high rate of coincidence, and to my knowledge, unheard of in any genuine item. The existence of these features in other forgeries is inarguable, and compiled by experts in the field. And some of them are observed by experts in the Voynich, too (although you would call them something other then experts... see what a chore this has become? I'm just going to call them experts from now on, which is my position), such as Yale noting "highly unusual" foldouts, and anomalies in construction, and more. McCrone finding a binder "not in their library", and "unsual" zinc and copper, and so on... I could cite a great many experts, in all fields, who point out features of the Voynich which fit that list of forgery features...
Well that was (necessarily) wordy, to make this point, spurred by your suggestion that if a forgery "specialist" agreed with me, that this was a modern forgery, then you might agree.
Well I don't think so. I am not sure what it would take... and again, that is fine if you never agree, this is a discussion about the acceptance and rejection of opinions of others... but I already know that volumes of expert opinions contrary to "1420 Genuine", the points of the Voynich which coincide with elements of forgery, as known by hundreds of years of the study of the art, and the similarities of these elements to the features of the Voynich itself, are all rejected.
Again, your prerogative. The point is, it is clear to me that this is what is done, and to what aim it is done, which would then cause me to seriously doubt any further evidence or opinion or whatever, would really make a difference. Or, tell me I am wrong, and what this hypothetical forgery specialist could show you, that would convince you? Not being sarcastic there, but truthfully asking the question.
Anyway, now that Lehmann-Haupt, his background and Voynich geography and dating opinions are revealed, what would you think about his input? Do you accept it, or reject it?
Thanks, Rich.