The Voynich Ninja

(26-03-2024, 08:17 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.That being said, if the images of the ring and the cross on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are references to episodes in the life of Colette of Corbie, it turns out she is a patron saint - and you'll never guess what - okay, you guessed it.

I think it has more to do with:

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
Offenses against chastity
# 2352

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"The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose."


I point to the nymph at the bottom of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. that is being consumed by a demon. What did Colette of Corbie have to do with being consumed by a demon?

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Nothing.

The nymph at the bottom is a representation like the generic mermaids in Harley 334 and two illustrations in Lauber's version of the "Book of Nature". The fact that she is not a mermaid indicates that she is another type of changeling, mythical Melusine, ancestor of the Valois lines of France.

Valois connections also place BNF Fr. 565 in the Berry library.

(26-03-2024, 10:19 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Nothing.

The nymph at the bottom is a representation like the generic mermaids in Harley 334 and two illustrations in Lauber's version of the "Book of Nature". The fact that she is not a mermaid indicates that she is another type of changeling, mythical Melusine, ancestor of the Valois lines of France.

Valois connections also place BNF Fr. 565 in the Berry library.

Are we looking at the same illustration? I don't see a changeling. I don't see a nymph changing into anything. I see a nymph being eaten by a monster.

Why don't you do a poll on this one?

But let's put that to the side for the moment. What other illustrations do you see as pointing to a connection with the life of Colette of Corbie? Why her?

It's fine that you see what you see. However, the real question is what did the VMs artist intend? Are there similar illustrations from other sources that offer a clearer explanation of the situation in some sort of historical, artistic context? Is it Ms. Jonah and the undernourished whale? <No, it's not.>

The mermaid / Melusine discussion goes back almost to the origins of this forum. If you have the opportunity to read some of it, and then have questions, that may preclude telling the whole story from scratch.

One side of the coin is how familiar are you with the relevant medieval information. I had never heard of Melusine until the myths were introduced by other investigators. So, historical obscurity is a relevant factor. And even after reading the myths, it may not be clear that the immediate source of the Valois ancestral connection to Melusine was through Bonne of Luxembourg.  Likewise, Colette of Corbie is a fairly obscure historical figure, and even then, in many of her biographies, the incidents of the ring and the cross are omitted.

The other side has to do with the attempt to evaluate the VMs artist's 'honesty'. Does the artist make every effort to make the illustrations as clear and obvious as possible? Or are there certain elements of ambiguity and obfuscation used to make the illustrations more 'interesting'? There are several VMs illustrations where elements of trickery appear to be involved and that adds a whole other dimension to determining what's what.

Maybe it's worth mentioning here that Panofsky pointed out the parallel between the Voynich zodiac and that in Alfonso X's Astromagia Reg Lat 1283a. Similar diagrams occur in another manuscript made for Alfonso, the Lapidario (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
This was discussed many times on this forum, at least You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., and older references can certainly be found on other sites.

[attachment=8335]

The Lapidary includes a wheel for each zodiac sign. Each wheel shows 30 anthropomorphic figures (angels) and 30 asterisms (typically single stars, each marked as a golden dot on a small image of the constellation it belongs to).

In this case, the source is Aristotle, whose name is the very first word of the text, accompanied by an illustration that shows him lecturing.

[attachment=8333]

Aristóteles, que fue más cumplido de los otros filósofos, y el que más naturalmente mostró todas las cosas por razón verdadera, y las hizo entender cumplidamente según son, dijo que todas las cosas que son sólo velos se mueven y se enderezan por el movimiento de los cuerpos celestiales, por la virtud que han de ellos, según lo ordenó Dios, que es la primera virtud y donde la han todas las otras. Y mostró que todas las cosas del mundo son como trabadas, y reciben virtud unas de otras; las más viles, de las más nobles. Y esta virtud parece en unas más manifiesta, así como en las animalias y en las plantas; y en otras más escondida, así como en las piedras y en los metales.

Translation: Aristotle, who was more comprehensive than the other philosophers, and who most naturally demonstrated all things by true reason, and made them fully understood as they are, said that all things which are mere veils are moved and directed by the movement of celestial bodies, by the virtue they receive from them, as ordained by God, who is the primary virtue and from whom all others derive. And he showed that all things in the world are interconnected, and they receive virtue from one another; the more humble ones, from the more noble ones. And this virtue appears more manifest in some, such as in animals and plants; and more hidden in others, such as in stones and metals.

In the book, thirty stones are listed for each zodiac sign (one per degree). Therefore a possible interpretation is that the diagrams illustrate the descending transmission of "virtue" (i.e. power) :
God the Prime Mover -> angel -> star -> stone.
In this case, the 360 angels are the astral spirits ruling on the individual degrees of the zodiac.

The text in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has no introduction, it was probably lost together with the sign of Aries. The text starts from the first degree of Taurus.

[attachment=8334]

En el primero grado del signo de tauro sube un omne que trahe un toro. El qui nasciere en el sera lazrado y trabaiador y amara mucho el mundo.

Translation: In the first degree of the sign of Taurus rises a man leading a bull. He who is born under this [degree] will be industrious and hardworking, and will have a great love for the world.

This is somehow similar to the lapidary, but there are no angels, and the asterisms are not represented by individual stars but by complex images inspired to the constellations. Also, the ultimate receiver of the stellar influx are people, not stones:
God -> astral image -> people.

The relationship between stars (asterisms) and people is one-to-many: all the people born (when the sun is) in a certain degree of the zodiac receive the same astral influence.

Speculation: personally, I believe the human figures in the Voynich zodiac are more likely to be akin to the people discussed in Reg Lat 1283a rather than the angels in the Lapidario. If we interpret the "nymphs" as pregnant women, they might illustrate how childbirth is affected by the astral configuration at the time of birth. The figures are drawn below the stars: this could correspond to being born "under a certain star". The "star tails" could illustrate the influx of the star flowing downward (as above, so below). I don't see how Plato's chariots from Timaeus can explain the layout of these zodiac wheels.

(27-03-2024, 10:01 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If we interpret the "nymphs" as pregnant women, they might illustrate how childbirth is affected by the astral configuration at the time of birth.

The "pregnant" interpretation is somewhat problematic because the standards of beauty were different than they are today.

Quote:White skin was fashionable, but it should have hints of pink in the form of rosy cheeks or similar. Fleshy arms and legs, broad hips and a round stomach were also all considered desirable – thinness was something of a problem in Renaissance Italy.

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(27-03-2024, 10:16 AM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(27-03-2024, 10:01 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If we interpret the "nymphs" as pregnant women, they might illustrate how childbirth is affected by the astral configuration at the time of birth.

The "pregnant" interpretation is somewhat problematic because the standards of beauty were different than they are today.

I agree and there's also the fact that some of the figures appear to be males. So it's probably safer to assume that the figures represent the people influenced by each degree, rather than the mothers of such people. This could be similar to the "children of the planets" visual tradition that developed in roughly the same time frame.
As Koen says, most of the figures could be naked women because they represent souls (assuming it's the soul that receives astral influence). But it could also be that they are naked because they are seen as patients (as in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). Of course, being more specific only makes speculation more likely to be wrong.

Anyway, the main point is that each star appears to represent a single degree of the zodiac and each figure could represent the (souls of the) people who receive the influence of that degree. The idea (however vague) is at least based on visual parallels that we can understand thanks to the text that comes with them.

I agree with Marco's post above. An additional problem is that some nymphs are clothed and others are nude. This doesn't help us decide between patients and souls though, since both categories can be depicted with and without clothes.

I still wonder why the figures are holding the stars like flowers on stalks. Since they are usually women, I believe a parallel with "lady holding flower" may be intended, but then with something that's certainly meant to look like a star as well.

Last night I was playing with the website Voynichese.com . It is a really fun tool/toy! I think the word "ror" may have something to do with life or birth.

The word "ror" is on page f68r1 in the third line of text, the third word from the end.

ror
17 matches, in f111r, f75r, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and 12 other folios.


1) I think page f68r1 of Quire 9 has to do with a pre-born soul being assigned to a father.

<f68r1.3,+P0;H>    ykor.shey.qocheey.chokal<-><!top of diagram>okeey.ror.cckheor.daram
<f68r1.3,+P0;F>    ykor.shey.qocheey.chokal<-><!top of diagram>oke!y.ror.chckhar.daram
<f68r1.3,+P0;U>    ykor,shey.qocheey.chokal<-><!top of diagram>okeey.ror.chkeear.daram



2) It is found on page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. of Quire 13. I think this page is about Insemination.

<f75r.2,+P0;H>    dain.shey.ly<-><!figure>sshe!ol.qol!chedy.chedykar.chekeedy.ror
<f75r.2,+P0;F>    dair.shey.ly<-><!figure>sshe!ol.qol!chedy.chedykar.chekeedy.ror
<f75r.2,+P0;V>    dain.shey.ly<-><!figure>sshe.ol.qol.chedy.chedykar.chekeedy.ror



?) Discrepancy -- The website does not show it on page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . Probably that blank space problem.

<f76r.51,+P0;H>    qkor.shedy.shey.keedy.sal.raiin.!opchdy.dar.chedy.qopchedy.ror!ol
<f76r.51,+P0;C>    qkor.shedy.shey.keedy.sal.raiin.ilpchdy.dar.chedy.qopchedy.ror!ol
<f76r.51,+P0;F>    qkor.shedy.shey.keedy.sal.raiin.!opchdy.dar.chedy.qopchedy.ror!ol
<f76r.51,+P0;V>    qkor.shedy.shey.keedy.sal.raiin.!opchdy.dar.chedy.qopchedy.ror.ol



3) It is found on page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. near the illustration in the upper-right corner. I think this illustration is a man sowing seeds.

<f76v.3,+P0;H>    dchedy.qokeedy.oteedy.chedaiin.chey.qokeedy.olkedy.ror.oteedy.okal
<f76v.3,+P0;F>    dchedy.qokeedy.oteedy.chedaiin.chey.qokeedy.olkedy.ror.oteedy.okal
<f76v.3,+P0;V>    dchedy.qokeedy.oteedy.chedaiin.chey.qokeedy.olkedy.ror.oteedy.okal



4) It is found on page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . I think this page is a warning to men.

<f78v.9,+P0;H>    y!cheol!k.ol!keedy.qoke!dy.ol.chedol.okeedy.qotedy.ror.arol
<f78v.9,+P0;C>    y!cheol!t.ol!keedy.qokeedy.ol!chedol.okeedy.qotedy.ror!arol
<f78v.9,+P0;F>    y!cheol.k!ol.keedy.qokeedy.ol.chedol.okeedy.qotedy.ror.arol
<f78v.9,+P0;V>    y.cheol!k.ol!keedy.qoke!dy.ol.chedol.okeedy.qotedy.ror.arol



5) It is found on page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . I think this page is still a warning to men.

Discrepancy:
<f79v.9,+P0;C>    ror.ol.sheey.qokeedy.qokechey.qol<$>

<f79v.13,+P0;H>    dain.ar.olshey.dytai!n.qokai!n.checthy.okeedy.qokeedy.ror
<f79v.13,+P0;C>    dain.ar.olshey.dytai!n.qokai!n.checthy.okeedy.qokeedy.ror
<f79v.13,+P0;V>    dain.ar.olshey.dytai!n.qokai!n.checthy.okeedy.qokeedy.ror



6) Page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .

<f80v.11,+P0;H>    tol.sheedy.qokar.olky.ror!cheey.sheckhy.qotai!n.chedy.rol
<f80v.11,+P0;C>    tol.sheedy.qokar.olky.ror.cheey.sheckhy.qotai!n.chedy.rol
<f80v.11,+P0;F>    tol.sheedy.qokar.olky.ror.cheey.sheckhy.qotaiin.chedy.rol
<f80v.11,+P0;V>    tol.sheedy.qokar.olky.ror.cheey.sheckhy.qotai!n.chedy.rol

<f80v.19,+P0;H>    p!!!sheoldy.dkshey.qokopy.ror.opor.olpoikhy.oltydy<-><!figure>
<f80v.19,+P0;C>    p!!!sheoldy.dkshey.qokopy.ror.opor.olpockhy.oltydy<-><!figure>
<f80v.19,+P0;F>    p!!!sheoldy.dkshey.qokopy.ror.opor.olpockhy.oltydy<-><!figure>
<f80v.19,+P0;V>    p<!.>sheoldy.dkshey.qokopy.ror.opor.olpoikhy.oltydy<-><!figure>



7) Page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is where the new baby soul leaves Heaven and enters the body of the mother-to-be.

<f82r.16,+P0;H>    qokeedy.lchedy.qokeedy.cheey.r!or.ol.s!aiin.chey.rai<!@I>t<!@T>!y.dam
<f82r.16,+P0;C>    qokeedy.lchedy.qokeedy.cheey.r.or.ol.s!aiin.chey.rac!!!!t!!!!hy.dam
<f82r.16,+P0;F>    qokeedy.lchedy.qokeedy.cheey.r!or.ol.s!aiin.chey.rac!!!!t!!!!hy.dam
<f82r.16,+P0;V>    qokeedy.lchedy.qokeedy.cheey.r.or.ol.s.aiin.chey.rai!!!!t!!!!!y.dam


8) Page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . Birth.

<f84v.36,+P0;H>    qokey.sol.kedy.okey.lkai!n.shey.shes.ol.shedy.qokeey.ror<-><!figure><!ys!khy->!
<f84v.36,+P0;C>    qokey.sol.kedy.okey.lkai!n.shey.shes.ol.shedy.qokeey.ror<-><!figure>!!!!!!!!!!
<f84v.36,+P0;F>    qokey.sol.kedy.okey.lkaiin.shey.shes.ol.shedy.qokeey.ror<-><!figure><!qc!khy->!
<f84v.36,+P0;V>    qokey.sol.kedy.okey.lkai!n.shey.shes.ol.shedy.qokeey.ror<-><!figure><!ys?khy->!



9) Page f90v1 .  A plant page.


?) Discrepancy
<f100r.13,+P0;F>  dsheor.cthey.qokeey.oteey.ykeeodaiin.ror.ary.daiin.daiin.deeam.chol


10) Page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . Text only.

11)  12) Page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . Text only.

13) Page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . Text only.

14) Page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . Text only.

15) Page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . Text only.

16)  17) Page f115 . Text only.



Here are my notes so far about Quire 13. There are still a lot of gaps. If anyone has any ideas, please feel free to share.


Quire 13 is about Pregnancy.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - Insemination; the male fluid with "nymphs" exits the male body and enters the female body.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - See Note below.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - Text only.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - Ensoulment in the tradition of Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas; vegetable, animal, human.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - The "nymphs" prepare the female body to receive the soul from Heaven. Note the 5 Elements at the top.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - The "nymphs" continue working to prepare the female body.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - See Note below.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - A Warning to men; only in marriage, only for procreation.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - A Warning to men; only in marriage, only for procreation.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - See Note below.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - Ensoulment; the soul arrives from Heaven and enters the body of the mother-to-be.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - Birth


Notes:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - I'm not 100% sure of this but the green fluid may be male and the blue fluid may be female.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - People in the past observed that a nursing mother was less likely to become pregnant. They thought this must mean that there was a direct connection inside the female body between the breasts and the womb. It is not clear if that idea is what is being illustrated here but it is a possibility.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - It is not clear what this page is about. It may have something to do with the joining of the male elements with the female elements. It may have something to do with if the new baby is "legitimate" (conceived by parents united in Holy Matrimony) or "illegitimate".

What do you think of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. with 3 + 6 = 9 nymphs as a representation of the Muses? Not only based on their number, but also on the uniqueness of the partially arcaded tub pattern as <another intentionally ambiguous> reference to the Muses illustration in Pizan's Book of the Queen?

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Medieval illustrations of the Muses are uncommon. Several representations are in Pizan's works, but the tubs and pools are different. And this singular VMs pattern representation is partial and on the back portion because that is more 'subtle' than showing entire coverage.

In addition to BNF Fr. 565 and the whole cosmic investigation, this is another Parisian connection within the C-14 dating range, and it is another Valois connection as well.