19-02-2016, 10:07 AM
19-02-2016, 10:07 AM
20-02-2016, 05:23 PM
20-02-2016, 07:05 PM
I expect it's a server error on their side. Try it again later.
01-07-2016, 07:48 AM
Rene - we usually say 'bovine' species.
Was the sex of the animal also determined? It is fairly unusual to find a membrane described as vellum had come from a cow; it was more usual to use a younger animal: a calf.
As to use of the plastic eraser to lift samples from vellum - yes, I agree that it is a clever method to lift samples, and has the added advantage of allowing fairly easy separation, with minimal contamination of the sample. I don't quite understand what this has to do with the Voynich manuscript - could you clarify that for us please?
I mean - has someone suggested the Voynich vellum is (a) uterine vellum or (b) similar to the French bibles? Or has someone taken samples from the VMS vellum recently using this method? Perhaps it was used in one of the tests done earlier - either by McCrone or by the University of Arizona? Sorry - just not clear about the connection and would be glad if you could explain a bit more. Thanks.
Was the sex of the animal also determined? It is fairly unusual to find a membrane described as vellum had come from a cow; it was more usual to use a younger animal: a calf.
As to use of the plastic eraser to lift samples from vellum - yes, I agree that it is a clever method to lift samples, and has the added advantage of allowing fairly easy separation, with minimal contamination of the sample. I don't quite understand what this has to do with the Voynich manuscript - could you clarify that for us please?
I mean - has someone suggested the Voynich vellum is (a) uterine vellum or (b) similar to the French bibles? Or has someone taken samples from the VMS vellum recently using this method? Perhaps it was used in one of the tests done earlier - either by McCrone or by the University of Arizona? Sorry - just not clear about the connection and would be glad if you could explain a bit more. Thanks.
01-07-2016, 12:18 PM
I thought it was generally known by now that this technique was applied in 2014 to samples
of the Voynich MS.
I mentioned it in the Folger presentation, and I also mention it on my web site but perhaps
it is not that generally known, so a summary may be useful here.
Eraser crumb samples were taken from approximately 10 places in the MS, and on my
recommendation also from the cover. They were analysed early July 2014 by the team of
the University of York, primarily Matthew Collins and Sarah Fiddyment.
Protein is extracted from the MS pages, and matched with samples from known species.
The cover sample could not be matched to any species. For all folio samples the species was listed as 'cow'
(and yes, that is what the specialists use, when distinguishing from goat, sheep or deer).
I attach a copy of part of the related Email.
[attachment=393]
of the Voynich MS.
I mentioned it in the Folger presentation, and I also mention it on my web site but perhaps
it is not that generally known, so a summary may be useful here.
Eraser crumb samples were taken from approximately 10 places in the MS, and on my
recommendation also from the cover. They were analysed early July 2014 by the team of
the University of York, primarily Matthew Collins and Sarah Fiddyment.
Protein is extracted from the MS pages, and matched with samples from known species.
The cover sample could not be matched to any species. For all folio samples the species was listed as 'cow'
(and yes, that is what the specialists use, when distinguishing from goat, sheep or deer).
I attach a copy of part of the related Email.
[attachment=393]
03-07-2016, 12:23 PM
"Cow" is far more specific here. Bovine would include animals such as water buffalo or a yak. The specialists are talking about domestic cattle, although to my mind the word cow further narrows this down to the female of the species, ruling out bulls.
Although I agree that hearing the phrase "species cow" makes me thinks there is a miscommunication somewhere, as a cow is simple a female example of a bovine, and in common parlance a domesticated breed. It seems to be either a very specific word to use, or a very generic one.
Was it possible to actually identify the breed of the cattle from this method? Is there a difference in the protein makeup from, say, Jersey cows or long horned? Or are all cattle similiar, whilst being different from, say, buffaloes? I don't personally know many cows - all goats around here.
Although I agree that hearing the phrase "species cow" makes me thinks there is a miscommunication somewhere, as a cow is simple a female example of a bovine, and in common parlance a domesticated breed. It seems to be either a very specific word to use, or a very generic one.
Was it possible to actually identify the breed of the cattle from this method? Is there a difference in the protein makeup from, say, Jersey cows or long horned? Or are all cattle similiar, whilst being different from, say, buffaloes? I don't personally know many cows - all goats around here.
03-07-2016, 12:53 PM
Hi David,
I haven't seen a lot of details about the method online, but from what I understood it is quite coarse, and for anything more specific one would have to do DNA analysis.
As I already mentioned, 'cow' is the word used by specialists when identifying the species from which the parchment was made.
Edit: typo 'coarse'
I haven't seen a lot of details about the method online, but from what I understood it is quite coarse, and for anything more specific one would have to do DNA analysis.
As I already mentioned, 'cow' is the word used by specialists when identifying the species from which the parchment was made.
Edit: typo 'coarse'
03-07-2016, 03:03 PM
I think part of the problem is that there is no generally used singular of "cattle" in English, so it seems many people use "cow" when talking about such an animal generically (see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
As for the method, I think it would be similar to that described in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. paper, except that probably no phylogenetic analysis would be done, as the species would be identifiable by searching for the sequence in the NCBI database. I don't think it would be possible to distinguish between different breeds of cow, except maybe between taurines (cattle of European/Near Eastern origin) and zebu (Indian origin).
Disclaimer: I don't have any experience with the method, only with DNA analysis.
As for the method, I think it would be similar to that described in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. paper, except that probably no phylogenetic analysis would be done, as the species would be identifiable by searching for the sequence in the NCBI database. I don't think it would be possible to distinguish between different breeds of cow, except maybe between taurines (cattle of European/Near Eastern origin) and zebu (Indian origin).
Disclaimer: I don't have any experience with the method, only with DNA analysis.
11-09-2016, 08:39 AM
Rene, is there a full report in the public domain?
11-09-2016, 10:13 AM
Hi David,
not as far as I know. A whole range of analyses of the manuscript's materials was started by Yale University and the Beinecke library in the frame of the Folger exhibition (2nd half 2014). They also made numerous multi-spectral images, but I don't know what is happening with these. The Yale book of essays is not likely to include more than a summary.
The method of York to identify the species has been presented on several occasions, and one paper can be seen here:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
not as far as I know. A whole range of analyses of the manuscript's materials was started by Yale University and the Beinecke library in the frame of the Folger exhibition (2nd half 2014). They also made numerous multi-spectral images, but I don't know what is happening with these. The Yale book of essays is not likely to include more than a summary.
The method of York to identify the species has been presented on several occasions, and one paper can be seen here:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.