I guess this totally refutes my theory that the marsh deer depicted on Folio 116v (the last page) was used for parchment. It probably also means that the marsh deer isn't really a marsh deer but something like an Italian donkey. Does anyone know for sure what that animal is?
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I look forward to learning what that animal is. Regards to all, Morten
Hi Morten!
I assume you mean the animal on the back page? Not the Venezuelan marsh deer? (Which is.... A deer!)
I think many people assume it's a goat. Anton has remarked upon the link between the two images and the text here:
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Am extensive discussion upon the text is also available, search for 116v to see the threads.
(03-07-2016, 12:53 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.....
I haven't seen a lot of details about the method online, but from what I understood it is quite coarse, and for anything more specific one would have to do DNA analysis. ....
Apart from knowing which animal has been processed, an investigation of the origin would be extremely interesting. DNA research could certainly provide information, but a common method of origin determination is the study of stable isotopes (SIRA). At least in the (European) food industry and its supervisory authorities, this determines the origin of meat products. The concluding remarks of a paper from 2016 summarize:
Quote:You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , Comprehensive Reviews in Food Science and Food Safety, Volume 15, Issue 5, Page 7
Stable Isotope Ratio Analysis for Assessing the Authenticity of Food of Animal Origin
Federica Camin, Luana Bontempo, Matteo Perini, and Edi Piasentier
....
Geographical, climatic, pedological, geological, botanical, and agricultural factors affect the stable isotope ratios of bioelements in nature, and isotopic variations are ultimately incorporated into animal tissue throughout eating, drinking, breathing, and exchange with the environment, being memorized in the resulting foods. As a consequence, the stable isotope ratios analysis of H, C, N, O, and S has shown high potential for determining geographical origin, animal diet, and the production system ( organic / conventional ) for pork, beef, poultry, milk, butter, cheese, fish, and shellfish.
....
I do not know if such methods are used in codicology.
(21-01-2018, 07:31 AM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Morten!
I assume you mean the animal on the back page? Not the Venezuelan marsh deer? (Which is.... A deer!)
I think many people assume it's a goat. Anton has remarked upon the link between the two images and the text here:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Am extensive discussion upon the text is also available, search for 116v to see the threads.
Hi David,
It is really wonderful to see that this discussion group is active. Maybe we can all help each other.
Thanks for that pointer to Anton's post, to which I have responded.
I'm still reluctant to give up on my S. Am. marsh deer idea because the animal's ears and black-colored lower legs match the marsh deer better than the goat. I arranged for a link to my website to be posted in a zoology subreddit. Maybe one of the pros there will have something to say.
I really wish the cow protein bioarchaeologists had published on paper on their research so that I could evaluate their method. Does anyone know if they randomly selected the pages to test upon arrival at the library, or were the pages pre-selected by the Beineke Library? These are the type of questions that a scientific paper would have answered.
BTW, I really like my nickname Discipulus! Thanks. I might use it elsewhere.
Quote:Does anyone know if they randomly selected the pages to test upon arrival at the library, or were the pages pre-selected by the Beineke Library?
I don't know, but normal protocol in these cases is for pages to be selected in discussion with the curators. The investigators will suggest pages and the curators decide whether the pages selected are stable enough for the test. This is my understanding of how the ink tests, and the C14 tests, were carried out.
Quote: BTW, I really like my nickname Discipulus! Thanks. I might use it elsewhere.
It will change as you advance through the ranks!
(22-01-2018, 04:33 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Does anyone know if they randomly selected the pages to test upon arrival at the library, or were the pages pre-selected by the Beineke Library?
The samples were taken by a conservator in Yale (Paula Zyats), and sent to York for analysis.
Selection was done based on recommendations from various people with a final decision by someone in Yale.
My interaction was with Paula Zyats, but the coordination of the various forensic tests was with Aniko Bezur of Yale.
Note that Yale University has several libraries, so certain services (like conservation) are not with the Beinecke, but with Yale, serving all libraries.
(22-01-2018, 07:17 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (22-01-2018, 04:33 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Does anyone know if they randomly selected the pages to test upon arrival at the library, or were the pages pre-selected by the Beineke Library?
The samples were taken by a conservator in Yale (Paula Zyats), and sent to York for analysis.
Selection was done based on recommendations from various people with a final decision by someone in Yale.
My interaction was with Paula Zyats, but the coordination of the various forensic tests was with Aniko Bezur of Yale.
Note that Yale University has several libraries, so certain services (like conservation) are not with the Beinecke, but with Yale, serving all libraries.
Thanks. That was very helpful. Does this mean that we are counting on the honesty and integrity of the Skull and Bones Society, which, according to Wikipedia, "plays a role in a global conspiracy for world control"?
I see that Cervidae and Bovidae are closely related, so I guess, until we learn more, an honest mistake cannot be ruled out.
I believe I have identified one of the Voynich plants as a freshwater plant currently living in the swamps of Venezuela. This could imply that all the plant drawings are real plants and flowers that lived in the Amazon rainforest around 600 to 700 years ago. However, cows did not live in the rainforest and it is doubtful that they could survive in that environment even if brought there.
Have the bioarchaeologists retained protein data from the back cover for which they could not identify the animal? If so, let's try sending them protein scrapings from three of the animals depicted in the manuscript: the S. Am. marsh deer, the Brazilian tapir, and the spotted jaguar, to see if any of them match.
BTW, I welcome criticisms of my observations. How else are we going to arrive at the truth?
Quote: Does this mean that we are counting on the honesty and integrity of the Skull and Bones Society, which, according to Wikipedia, "plays a role in a global conspiracy for world control"?
I'm not sure what you mean by that, but I'm sure you aren't casting aspersions upon the Beinecke library or Dr Zyats.
(22-01-2018, 11:04 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote: Does this mean that we are counting on the honesty and integrity of the Skull and Bones Society, which, according to Wikipedia, "plays a role in a global conspiracy for world control"?
I'm not sure what you mean by that, but I'm sure you aren't casting aspersions upon the Beinecke library or Dr Zyats.
I went back and added the smiley that I forgot to do when I pasted it in.
But, yes, for the moment I am rejecting the conclusion that the Voynich parchment comes from cow. Apparently, the bioarchaeologists never had sight of the Voynich manuscirpt, so their findings lack scientific rigor.
(23-01-2018, 08:30 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (22-01-2018, 11:04 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote: Does this mean that we are counting on the honesty and integrity of the Skull and Bones Society, which, according to Wikipedia, "plays a role in a global conspiracy for world control"?
I'm not sure what you mean by that, but I'm sure you aren't casting aspersions upon the Beinecke library or Dr Zyats.
I went back and added the smiley that I forgot to do when I pasted it in.
But, yes, for the moment I am rejecting the conclusion that the Voynich parchment comes from cow. Apparently, the bioarchaeologists never had sight of the Voynich manuscirpt, so their findings lack scientific rigor.
Please note that this plea for scientific rigor comes from the author of You are not allowed to view links.
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"page after page of evidence that the Earth was visited by an alien astronaut during the sixth century".