The Voynich Ninja

(31-03-2016, 09:22 AM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Dear Colleagues,

Am I mis-reading the trend of this thread, or have we leapt from wondering what sort of creature might be intended, to one suggestion of its being a sheep...  - to presuming that the maker intended to draw a sheep, re-defining the probable date for first composition of the image...  and from that to trying to rope it in to a theoretical 'history' for the manuscript relating to Germany?

You are mis-reading this thread.
There have been several suggestions and each has been given consideration in the thread. Chronologically, the latest discussion of the Golden Fleece Order links to France and Belgium, not Germany. This is not a "trend" either, but merely the latest of many options discussed.
 

(31-03-2016, 09:22 AM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Have we any other reasonable suggestions about what sort of creature this was meant to represent? 

This thread is full of such suggestions, from various posters. I really suggest you re-read this thread.
If you would like to add your own, please do so, if possible with pictures or links as others have done here.

Diane,

There are several things happening in this discussion. First is pin a name on the VMs animal. This can be a bit difficult for some of us. I've changed my mind twice already.

But there is more to it, to the illustration as a whole, than just the creature itself. There are the lines! And finding that they are known as nebuly lines and seeing that the VMs illustration shows the very accurate application of blue paint in its version of a nebuly line only enhances the significance of how the lines participate in the holistic identification of the VMs illustration.

The Tubingen Ram seems to be the best / only illustration that contains both elements: Animal (above) and nebuly line (below). Are there other examples of anything similar?  Any animal; any lines? - - Don't blame me, it was posted by MarcoP, and it started with another fellow on Bax's blog. But I do agree with the similarities, particularly with the nebuly lines and the way they are painted. And if my investigations have brought any recognition of heraldic lines into the general conversation, then so be it.

I think there is an improved interpretation of the VMs taking shape. Starting with the Oresme cosmos illustration. It implies the VMs artist had seen a representation of the Oresme illustration. And likewise an image of the Tubingen Ram or something similar. The elaborate replication of a blue and white cloud band in the central circle of the Nine Rosettes, demonstrates the VMs artist's affinity for this type of design. And Don of Tallahassee has shown some strong examples of these hyperbolic, cloud-like, little nebuly lines on steroids , not only in Oresme and de Pizan, but elsewhere as well. However, it seems to me that there is not yet enough information to say what happened after that or to clearly distinguish diffusion from reinvention, somehow leading to the VMs example.

Then if you consider the presence of heraldry-like patterns in the designs of the tubs in the first three pages of the VMs Zodiac, and particularly when it comes to a subtle but pictorially validated historical identification. And it is an identification based on an institutional tradition, a tradition that continues today. A choice than has lasted for centuries, but the origins of the tradition have become obscure to many in current times. Likewise, parts of heraldry have become obscure and are omitted from many references. That does not mean that the artist was not familiar with this sort of knowledge. Obviously, the VMs use of this information is historically retrospective by a century or more. The papelonny pun cures all doubt that the construction is accidental.

(31-03-2016, 08:28 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The Tubingen Ram seems to be the best / only illustration that contains both elements: Animal (above) and nebuly line (below). Are there other examples of anything similar?  Any animal; any lines? - - Don't blame me, it was posted by MarcoP, and it started with another fellow on Bax's blog. 

Hi R.Sale,
the Aries image was originally pointed out by Darren Worley.
Here is another example with lions above the nebuly line. It has droplets falling above another allegorical figure placed below the "cloud". It is a detail of the copy of the Ripley Scroll You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (second half of the XVI Century).

This image, from a late 13th C version of Aristotle's Meteora, shows an unidentified animal in clouds as a cause of meteors.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I know its not much of a match, but thought it was interesting, among all the other possibilities.

ETA: The above creature may be some kind of goat, I guess, since St Thomas Aquinas, in his commentary on Aristotle's Meteora, explains that meteors were called goats (source: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. )
Aristotle:
"38 Having determined these principles let us explain the cause of the appearance in the sky of burning flames and of shooting-stars, and of 'torches', and 'goats', as some people call them
42.Now when the inflammable material is longer than it is broad sometimes it seems to throw off sparks as it burns. (This happens because matter catches fire at the sides in small portions but continuously with the main body.) Then it is called a 'goat'"
Thomas:
"For if the aforesaid matter is more in length than in width, and when it burns, the fire "scintillates," i.e., seems to leap and run about like "aeges," i.e., goats (which happens because not all the matter begins to be ignited at once but according to certain small sections, beginning from some starting-point in the matter), when, I say, this happens, it is called "aeges," i.e., a goat."

And edited again to add:
Meteors can contain peridot (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ), a gem that is used in jewelry... hence the lady with the ring beneath it, perhaps?

The point I am hoping to make about the VMs illustration and the discussion of animal identification is that it is not just a matter of finding an animal that is the best subjective match. This is a tewfer - double or nothing. Most attempts to identify the VMs animal have simply ignored the wobbly lines as if they were irrelevant. And those who have named them them have called them a pillow, a filter, an alter or a cushion. According to heraldic tradition however, this is a nebuly line. And given the traditional interpretation, these lines represent clouds.

I believe that the presence of the lines is as important as the identification of the animal. Therefore the requirement to match the VMs illustration is to have both elements: the animal and the clouds. This criterion admits few examples.

Of the illustrations I have seen, it is my opinion that the example of the Tubingen Ram, as posted by Darren Worley, is the closest in matching both elements. Though the lines, similarly colored, are a better match than the animals, it is still within the realm of possibility.

As to the latest image from MarcoP, do two lions beat a ram? Well, I'm not sure. I've got no credentials in art interpretation, not a single one. What I see under the lions is a band of text. I can't make it out. Is there a better interpretation? Is there something about 'beginning' and 'ending' at certain dates? Then there is the nebuly line across the page, representing the cosmic boundary, and under it the sun etc.

My view is that the band of text is a separate, independent and intervening element. It stands between the lions and the nebuly lines. The lions are a sort of heading, the text is a label, the rest is a picture. The lions and the nebuly line are almost juxtaposed. But they are not ideologically connected. And that stands in contrast to the VMs and Tubingen ram comparison, where the animal and the nebuly lines are actually and ideologically connected within the illustration according to traditional, medieval interpretation. And that is simply that this is not just a ram, or some animal of another sort. This is a celestial ram, above the clouds. This is Aries. Have you looked at VMs Aries lately? Maybe it's a subtle hint.

In the image posted by VViews, the lines in the image are a bit irregular and wavy at best. They do not display the bulbous character that is the defining quality of a nebuly line. Wavy lines are an alternative representation used in some illustrations, but the VMs images use nebuly lines in several locations as the apparent preference.
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Come on guys, let's be real for a second. It's not a sheep and much less a ram. There are just too many arguments against that interpretation.

- No curled horns. Those are absolutely required for a "ram" identification.
- Body covered in scales. I'm yet to see an illustration of a sheep with fur like this.
- Colouring seems to have been a shade of green, at least on the scans I'm using. 
- Hooves are sometimes drawn like the front paw, but not like the back paw. Very dubious. Though this is admittedly the least convincing argument, since animal feet are often drawn rather generically in the VM.
- Tail looks like a short, forked tail.
- "Nebuly line" argument doesn't strengthen the identification for "sheep". All kinds of things appeared with nebuly lines, and wavy lines appear also in other settings.
- The only way this animal's body shape can be seen as a sheep's is when comparing it to certain specific illustrations of the golden fleece. Ram's horns are totally obligatory in that case. In all other cases, this curved back would be highly unnatural for a sheep.
- The animal on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is probably a sheep. It looks different in all aspects.

(06-04-2016, 06:55 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The point I am hoping to make about the VMs illustration and the discussion of animal identification is that it is not just a matter of finding an animal that is the best subjective match. This is a tewfer - double or nothing. Most attempts to identify the VMs animal have simply ignored the wobbly lines as if they were irrelevant. And those who have named them them have called them a pillow, a filter, an alter or a cushion. According to heraldic tradition however, this is a nebuly line. And given the traditional interpretation, these lines represent clouds.

I believe that the presence of the lines is as important as the identification of the animal. Therefore the requirement to match the VMs illustration is to have both elements: the animal and the clouds. This criterion admits few examples.

I can't say what the VMS illustrator means by the nebuly but every medieval manuscript I've seen with nebuly has meant heaven or heavenly or "of heaven" or some spiritual presence.

A picture of a lion could be a bestiary animal, a zodiac animal, a heraldic animal or an animal from a chronicle, but as soon as the illustrator added nebuly or wings, it represented St. Mark, the evangelist or something "heavenly" or godly, depending on the subject at hand.



I agree with you that nebuly weren't added as random design elements. In those days, they had meaning, the same way a halo or royal orb in a picture had meaning.

Well, with some seriousness, what I suggest is that the Tubingen Ram is a provisional identification. This is a discussion group and this is a point of discussion.

While you do make a number of seemingly valid points about how a ran should look, there is still the significant hurdle of presenting an example to match the VMs that is equivalent or better that the Tubingen ram. If it can be said: "All kinds of things appeared with nebuly lines, and wavy lines appear also in other settings." Then, simply present the better examples and we can go from there.

The criteria used to identify an image of a ram might be one with all the bells and whistles - and big horns. Most but not all do have big horns. How many ways are there to represent wool? It seems there are a variety of possibilities. The golden fleece example, covered with gold coins was interesting. If you take the imprint off of the coins, it leaves something very much like a scale pattern and in some parts it is turned backwards creating a certain similarity with the way the VMs image was drawn.

But here, perhaps, is where a difference of perspective exists. On the one hand it is suggested that in order for the animal to be a ram, it must look like a ram as much as possible. In essence, it *should* look exactly like a ram, in order to be seen as a ram. But taken from the opposite direction, consider the question: What is a minimal level of similarity necessary to still be evocative of the idea of the ram?

If everything is clear and obvious, where are the hidden secrets? If everything is clear and obvious, what's the big hang up?

So, let's put it this way. The challenge is to find an image, that is clearly not a ram, but is a better match for the VMs illustration than the example provisionally identified.
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So what you're saying is basically: "the example I prefer is really bad and doesn't match the image in most aspects, but you can't come up with anything better so I'll go withe that for now".

Now I agree that at some point you have to say "it's probably not gonna get any better than this" and tentatively accept your best guess. That doesn't count if your best guess is extremely bad though (see my list above for why I think so).

It's easy to produce better examples, even from life. It's got scales, a flat head, forked tail, relatively short legs, greenish color, curled up position. That seems rather reptilian to me. Here's just an example. This lizard is from South-Africa, so it won't be this exact species:

(06-04-2016, 07:49 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Come on guys, let's be real for a second. It's not a sheep and much less a ram. There are just too many arguments against that interpretation.

Come on Koen Gh., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is explained by You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Could you consider applying the same standards to your ideas as to those of other people?

Koen Gh. Wrote: All kinds of things appeared with nebuly lines, and wavy lines appear also in other settings.

I see two possibilities:

1. You know of numerous other examples of animals with nebuly lines. Then you should share them for discussion.

2. You don't know of numerous other examples of animals with nebuly lines. Than the above hand-waving statement is unfounded, misleading and most likely wrong.