The results so far are interesting and unexpected.
I would ask people what (not more than 6 categories) people would subdivide the cipher option into. Remember these would not be a list of 6 different classifications for ciphers, but rather 6 options that would be seen as plausible or possible explanations for Voynichese. I don't see much point in having a list of possibilities many of which nobody thinks applies to the Voynich(e.g. RSA algorithm).
I am quite keen to have another poll for those who selected cipher to see what kind of "cipher" explanations are most popular.
So suggestions welcome.
I find it difficult because my main certainty is what I know it is not. By that I mean that only the first option from your list can be eliminated. I'm also not sure how voynichese can be shorthand given its low character entropy, but maybe I am missing something there.
(02-11-2022, 10:02 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I find it difficult because my main certainty is what I know it is not. By that I mean that only the first option from your list can be eliminated.
Well, then given what you know it is not, consider what you think it could be and then what you think the most likely of those options is and you have your answer.
(02-11-2022, 10:02 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm also not sure how voynichese can be shorthand given its low character entropy, but maybe I am missing something there.
Well, I guess that therefore you did not select the option "shorthand". Obviously from the poll quite a few other believe it to be shorthand, of some form, which is fine. As you know that's not my opinion, but it is interesting to know what others think. I was expecting only 1 or 2 people would select "shorthand", as it is, there were many more who thought that the most likely explanation.
I myself have a very clear idea what it is. Which is, a verbose cipher heavily influenced by Milanese diplomatic ciphers of around the early 1430s and possibly containing a significant quantity of filler text. However I very curious what the spread of other peoples' opinions is.
I also find an overview of opinions interesting, though perhaps mostly if I look at the matter like a sociologist would. But even more interesting is
why people hold those opinions. Maybe the seven shorthand voters have certain arguments in favor of shorthand which I overlooked. I doubt it though. If anything, Voynichese is probably "longhand"
It could an invented language + cipher or shorthand, at most a natural language + cipher, where cipher can be encryption or further encoding.
While some indicators like Zipf do say that Voynichese does have some characteristics and behavior of a natural language, there are many more indicators that it really is not.
For me it is quite difficult to look the vms glyphs as a sequence of sounds, but instead as a result of some kind of compression algorithm resulting in a nice binomial word length distribution. Encoding or encryption could generate something like it, quite rigid positional properties of the glyphs could indicate a not so advanced algorithm as you cloud expect from the period. Could result also repetitions of positions do not have many glyph choices, gallows could be helpers to ensure compression to keep things in a fixed range.
(03-11-2022, 02:55 PM)Scarecrow Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It could an invented language + cipher or shorthand, at most a natural language + cipher, where cipher can be encryption or further encoding.
I tried to keep it simple; it is certainly possible that it could be a variety of options combined. I left the "Other - please specify" for that and other options. I felt that if the categories I had suggested did not seem to represent the range of options that people believe then I would rerun the poll with a different set of options.
(03-11-2022, 02:44 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Maybe the seven shorthand voters have certain arguments in favor of shorthand which I overlooked. I doubt it though. If anything, Voynichese is probably "longhand"
Yes. Anyone willing to write 7000 times
dy and other very frequent patterns that could easily be abbreviated has no concern for space.
Shorthand also requires a lot more common characters than the set in basic EVA. Their number could be maybe doubled by taking into account small variations in loops and curvatures, though I am not convinced that it is possible to reliably discriminate between similar shapes, the quality of writing being what it is.
The only shorthand proposal that I remember is the one by You are not allowed to view links.
Register or
Login to view., very ambiguous and requires a lot of expansion.
(02-11-2022, 08:53 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I am quite keen to have another poll for those who selected cipher to see what kind of "cipher" explanations are most popular.
So suggestions welcome.
To keep it simple 4 alternatives would be enough I guess or 3, since the first one is already covered in the first option of the previous poll:
- Basic substitution cipher without any homophones, nulls, codes (one to many and many to one)
- Substitution with some or all of the improvements listed above
- Segmentation (as in Stolfi's or other word models, with or without nulls) and code: for example
qo-ke-dy encodes 3 plaintext letters
- Any other type of encryption (too many possibilities to list them all) including gibberish with steganography, Cardan grille variants, etc.
What if the whole VMs text is a combination of sense and nonsense? Most of the text could be nonsense, while the sensible and relevant parts were disguised in some fashion. Shall we assume that the best parts have been removed?
Do the VMs illustrations provide any guidance to the investigation? Botanical identifications bloom briefly and then wilt. The information <historically relevant facts and ideas> contained in the VMs illustrations appears to have been disguised, altered and hidden in certain examples, at least to the extent that the medieval interpretations of reality have been recovered thus far.
If the VMs is a puzzle, or a serious sort of spy vs. spy, perhaps the significant text has been hidden. It really does raise the level of difficulty a bit if only certain parts of the written text are relevant. The presence of Stolfi's markers in certain circular text segments certainly provides the necessary structural elements.
With a cosmos that combines the structures from Oresme and Shirakatsi, setting limits on VMs "sophistication" - by which I mean trickery - may prove difficult.