(26-09-2022, 08:26 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So there you have another problem: if it is meant to look exotic ("Coptic", otherwise Egyptian or just exotic in general), then why the blond nymphs, European castle, European zodiac, references to familiar traditions...?
The blond nymphs, castle, and so forth may look distinctly European to us, but they might not have seemed that way to someone trying to contrive an "exotic" manuscript in the fifteenth century. I suppose this would have depended on the person's range of experience with cultural materials from other parts of the world. Someone who had only ever seen European manuscripts might have had a difficult time creating something that didn't look European simply by default.
Here's a puzzle that might be analogous: if you or I wanted to create a manuscript that we could pass off as the work of an extraterrestrial civilization, what distinctively Earthling cultural details would we consciously avoid so as not to give the deception away?
One might argue though that the castle isn't merely "European", it's somewhat political. This depends on the extent to which swallowtail merlons were still seen (in the 15th century) as a symbol rather than a merely architectural feature, something we still haven't quite figured out.
In the alien analogy, I would probably need to revert to the tropes of the sci-fi genre. And that is another argument against the exotic theory: Europeans were pretty familiar with orientalization. They'd give a man a curved sword, some fancy headgear...
But in the VM, I'm not sure if we see any attempt to make the thing look foreign by including things that were generally seen as foreign. This can even be said of the script, which contains mostly glyphs familiar to Latin scribes. Although the gallows may be seen as an exception, and I'm not even sure about that.
(26-09-2022, 10:54 PM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Actually Sledge is referring to a concrete method and he argues that this method would reproduce the statistical key properties of the Voynich manuscript. Therefore it is possible to check if this method is able to explain the properties of the Voynich text. See You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
We are mixing two different arguments here. One is "is this exact method attested in the Middle Ages?" and the other is "can this be done?"
Sledge argues that the type of cipher that would produce the VM text is beyond the horizon of the Middle Ages (I assume it would need entropy-reducing features like verbose elements, strategically introducing spaces, positional variations and so on). It is unattested. This is true. But the alternative method proposed is
also unattested in the Middle Ages. The fact that it can be done in modern times is made somewhat less relevant by Sledge's argumentation, since he pays attention to what we could and could not expect in the Middle Ages.
The other question is, can it be done. This would ideally be tested by having a few participants unaware of the VM text study the method for a while, let them practice a bit, and then have them use it to produce a text. It is important that the volunteers are not very familiar with the VM or haven't read an EVA transcription, because otherwise they'd know what they're aiming for. This should be done using pen and paper, without the aid of computers. I know this is practically almost impossible - any test that requires volunteers is hard to get done - but it would be an interesting test to see how the human mind interacts with these rules, and how quickly text is generated.
(27-09-2022, 08:42 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Sledge argues that the type of cipher that would produce the VM text is beyond the horizon of the Middle Ages (I assume it would need entropy-reducing features like verbose elements, strategically introducing spaces, positional variations and so on). It is unattested. This is true. But the alternative method proposed is also unattested in the Middle Ages. The fact that it can be done in modern times is made somewhat less relevant by Sledge's argumentation, since he pays attention to what we could and could not expect in the Middle Ages.
Actually Sledge argumentation didn't depend on the idea that such a cipher is unattested in the Middle Ages since even today such a cipher is not known.
At least pseudo writing is known also for medieval times: See for instance the decorative pseudo texts as described in "Writing that isn’t. Pseudo-scripts in comparative view" (Houston, S. 2018, p. 21-48. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.): "Other examples include : an illumination in a Medieval manuscript of ceramics in an apothecary’s shop with pseudo-Hebrew ..." and "The second pseudo-scripter, a very different case, is the late Medieval painter Robert Campin (c. 1378-1444), otherwise termed the Master of Flémalle" The pseudo inscriptions are much shorter but they typically contain "repeated or illegible signs."
(27-09-2022, 08:42 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The other question is, can it be done. This would ideally be tested by having a few participants unaware of the VM text study the method for a while, let them practice a bit, and then have them use it to produce a text. It is important that the volunteers are not very familiar with the VM or haven't read an EVA transcription, because otherwise they'd know what they're aiming for. This should be done using pen and paper, without the aid of computers. I know this is practically almost impossible - any test that requires volunteers is hard to get done - but it would be an interesting test to see how the human mind interacts with these rules, and how quickly text is generated.
You still didn't explain why the participants must be unaware of the VM text. The students have not studied the Voynich text in detail and never heard of the self citation hypothesis.
Claire Bowern clearly describes that after writing about 100 words it become increasingly difficult to think of new words. Only for this reason the students began to repeat themselves. If you want to come up with something new, it is a creative and therefore laborious process. It simply does not matter whether you want to write something meaningless or not: "It is a dramatic observation that when human subjects are asked to generate random sequences, they normally cannot produce sequences that satisfy accepted criteria for randomness" (Treismann and Faulkner 1987: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
D'Imperio even describes this method as the natural method to generate pseudo text: "The scribe, faced with the task of thinking up a large number of such dummy sequences, would naturally tend to repeat parts of neighboring strings with various small changes and additions to fill out the line until the next message-bearing word or phrase." (D'Imperio 1978, p. 31).
Isn't it the case that it is Logically and Mathematically true that:
-The only way to prove it is not a hoax is to 'solve' it.
-Until then the hoax theory is totally valid.
and the essential point of both arguments is the method / Algorithm used to generate the text.
(24-09-2022, 02:44 PM)Hermes777 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Justin makes well researched videos. He's especially hot on Qabbalah and Jewish esoterica. A good series. He's perfected his trademark dry humour.
As somebody who's interested in mysticism and personal spirituality as practices for self-transformation, rather than merely as historical and anthropological curiosities best left in the past, Prof Sledge's vlogs always left me feeling like the joke was on me, and I'd been baited and switched. So I have a love-hate relationship with him. I can't not respect his chops as a historian. He's done his homework. I'm just glad to see, in this video, he's appropriately upfront about his biases as a skeptic.
I was surprised to see Justin Sledge make a video about the VMs — it seems a little outside of his area of expertise. Others in this thread have already pointed out how much undue credibility he gives to the poorly substantiated history of the VMs. Hermes777, I'm midway through your blog about your Nicholas of Cusa theory. I was especially intrigued to read your conjectures about an alchemical and astrological system that was imported from a more Eastern tradition, but applied, both secularly and spiritually, to a local herb-gathering tradition in Alpine Europe. I would have hoped that Prof Sledge would have had something to say about the alchemical and astrological symbolism in the imagery, as a trained historian of such things. It surprised and disappointed me that he seemed to show no interest in the imagery and its provenance.
At least we can say for sure now that the VMs has nothing directly Kabbalah-related in it. If it did, Prof Sledge would certainly have picked up on it and commented on it.
(27-09-2022, 02:04 PM)RobGea Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.-The only way to prove it is not a hoax is to 'solve' it.
Yes Rob, decoding the VMS would of course be the ultimate clarification of the question. However, there are also indications that point in one or the other direction. One point would be for example the appearance of errors in the text of the VMS (see post #40). Even if they are few, then the assertion the VMS is a Hoax is invalid. Why should one correct meaningless text ?
It is conceivable that the text in the VMS was "scrambled" with some combinatorial methodology and is hardly reconstructible. But this is something completely different than a text which is meaningless from the beginning.
(27-09-2022, 02:18 PM)RenegadeHealer Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (24-09-2022, 02:44 PM)Hermes777 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Justin makes well researched videos. He's especially hot on Qabbalah and Jewish esoterica. A good series. He's perfected his trademark dry humour.
As somebody who's interested in mysticism and personal spirituality as practices for self-transformation, rather than merely as historical and anthropological curiosities best left in the past, Prof Sledge's vlogs always left me feeling like the joke was on me, and I'd been baited and switched. So I have a love-hate relationship with him. I can't not respect his chops as a historian. He's done his homework. I'm just glad to see, in this video, he's appropriately upfront about his biases as a skeptic.
I was surprised to see Justin Sledge make a video about the VMs — it seems a little outside of his area of expertise. Others in this thread have already pointed out how much undue credibility he gives to the poorly substantiated history of the VMs. Hermes777, I'm midway through your blog about your Nicholas of Cusa theory. I was especially intrigued to read your conjectures about an alchemical and astrological system that was imported from a more Eastern tradition, but applied, both secularly and spiritually, to a local herb-gathering tradition in Alpine Europe. I would have hoped that Prof Sledge would have had something to say about the alchemical and astrological symbolism in the imagery, as a trained historian of such things. It surprised and disappointed me that he seemed to show no interest in the imagery and its provenance.
At least we can say for sure now that the VMs has nothing directly Kabbalah-related in it. If it did, Prof Sledge would certainly have picked up on it and commented on it.
I certainly see the manuscript as an anomalous mixture of a rustic European folk herbalism (and accompanying nymph mythology) and a cosmopolitan astrology with distinctly Graeco-Arabic features. I went searching for an historical context that can explain that. Nicholas of Cusa's close encounter with the Ladin tradition is the best fit I can find.
It's the same anomaly of very folkish and often crude illustrations yet the text - whether a cipher or whatever else, even an elaborate hoax - is very sophisticated (showing a deep knowledge of Latin manuscript conventions.) Where do those two things come together? Nicholas was on a civilising mission during his time as bishop over the Ladin people.
There's not a whiff of Qabbalah in the Voynich. I am sure Justin's engagement with the language included trawling it for hints of Hebrew and Hebrew solutions. It just doesn't seem to participate in that stream of esotericism. The dominant stream of Western occultism draws on Judaism: Aleister Crowley complained that when he was initiated at sword-point into the secrets of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn he was entrusted with a copy of the Hebrew alphabet. The Voynich is a different stream altogether, and leads to modern expressions like Rudolf Steiner (Paracelsus, Goethe etc.) - not Justin Sledge's preferred esoterica.
Hermes777, your rationale for investigating Nicholas of Cusa reminds me a lot of the technique I was taught in my training for chasing a diagnosis on a patient with ambiguous signs and symptoms. Make a table with a column for each of the 3~5 most prominent signs of symptoms. For each of these, individually, list the 5~10 most common and likely health problems that cause that sign or symptom, in descending order. Typically at he end of this magic spell, one diagnosis will appear near the top of all the lists. That one has a very good likelihood of being the right diagnosis, and deserves the bulk of your attention and workup, until and unless it can be ruled out. Intersecting lines, essentially. R. Sale, a long-time contributor here, has used a similar exercise in intersection to investigate a [different] narrow range of people. I support this method.
To everyone else, and to Torsten’s credit, I think it bears repeating my view that the VMS’s meaninglessness is the null hypothesis. It is meaningless to all apparent beholders both now and historically documented, and it is meaningless to all until proven otherwise. This is Emma’s scenario number 2, as I understand it. It’s not profound. It’s banal.
What if part of the written text actually is nonsense and part of it is encrypted? That seems like a totally elegant way to deter the curious. If you start off with a bunch of stuff that will never make sense, investigators may well give up. And modern statistical analysis will also be messy.
If the text cannot be read, the text cannot be read. Consequently, there is nowhere else to turn other than the illustrations. Which ones will make sense and which ones might contribute to moving the VMs investigation forward? There are only a few, just the ones that stand out most obviously.
What about the VMs cosmos? Has the comparison with BNF Fr. 565 and Harley 334 been forgotten or negated? How can recognition function without an awareness of the original information? And even if this interpretation is considered hypothetical, it is clear that a nebuly line functions as a cosmic boundary in the VMs cosmos (with 43 undulations). The unusual cosmic structure that is seen in all three illustrations is a complete rejection of the standard, geocentric model of planetary spheres relevant to the time. Both historical illustrations have provenance from Paris during the VMs C-14 dates or shortly after - before 1450.
What about the VMs mermaid? Again, with similarities to an illustration in Harley 334. Yet the VMs representation of a mermaid is unique because she has thighs and mermaids do not have thighs. Introducing Melusine of Luxembourg.
How can a VMs investigation ignore the illustrations? The proper interpretation of the illustrations might offer essential clues relating to the translation of the written text.