Hermes777 ' Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't detect anything in the illustrations and diagrams that might require serious concealment, but who knows?
I think the idea that you and others have explored to a connection between Ramon Llull and the Voynich cipher is an interesting one. I felt it important that I made some investigation into Ramon Llull a few years ago, in order to be thorough and investigate all options, though I had by that time developed my theory to the point where I believed that the connection was to diplomatic ciphers. I am very much of the opinion that the Voynich cipher or system comes from a pre-existing tradition and did not emerge out of a void, whether that tradition be a Llullian one or a diplomatic one or some other is a worthy topic of debate. Some researchers present theories of the system by which the Voynich was written without any contemporary historic context. It is possible there was no historical context and the Voynich system was invented once and only for that manuscript or that none of its influences survive, however I, personally, find that doubtful.
I share your opinion that there is a cartographic interpretation to the Rosettes foldout, as quite a number of other people have, although my map of a journey, itinerary style map interpretation clearly differs from yours. I was very fortunate to discuss the subject with Professor Paul Harvey whose book "Medieval Maps" is very interesting.
I am one who believes that on the whole people presenting bold and challenging theories is a good thing and not to be discouraged, so in that respect I congratulate you in your efforts.
(28-08-2022, 09:17 AM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (28-08-2022, 07:46 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.- a top cipher developer would know very well that it is a very bad idea to encrypt a very long text with a single method/key
Why would it be a very bad idea?
One reason is that generally in cryptanalysis, the more source material you have to work with, the better your chances are at cracking the cypher. The more sentences there are, the better your chances of finding repetitions or other patterns that lead to the breakthrough. The Voynich definitely violates this general principle!
That said, many successful decipherments have owed more to mistakes in how the cypher system was implemented by its users, and less to weaknesses in the cypher system itself. If the mind(s) behind the Voynich knew enough about cyphers to design/adapt and use one but lacked practical experience or knowledge of how cyphers are attacked, that is one explanation of why this general principle wasn't followed. A little knowledge is sometimes more dangerous than no knowledge. Believing that your cypher is unbreakable can also lead to overconfidence and result in implementation mistakes, such as using it for an extremely long text.
Alternatively, they may only have wanted to protect the text from cursory snooping and never expected it to be subject to lengthy cryptanalysis. There are probably a few other reasons we could speculate about.
(28-08-2022, 09:17 AM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(Also it is possible that the Voynich uses more than one key, hence the appearance of different languages/dialects)
The differences between the Currier dialects are often centre stage, but what I find most fascinating is how those differences play out against a backdrop of similarities. This poses interesting implications for any changes to the system, including if there is more than one key.
(28-08-2022, 03:32 PM)tavie Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (28-08-2022, 09:17 AM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (28-08-2022, 07:46 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.- a top cipher developer would know very well that it is a very bad idea to encrypt a very long text with a single method/key
Why would it be a very bad idea?
One reason is that generally in cryptanalysis, the more source material you have to work with, the better your chances are at cracking the cypher. The more sentences there are, the better your chances of finding repetitions or other patterns that lead to the breakthrough.
This is the response I expected.
(28-08-2022, 03:32 PM)tavie Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The Voynich definitely violates this general principle!
And this is the response that immediately occurred to me. However there is a more thoughtful response that I could provide. Diplomatic ciphers were not used in a professional capacity to encipher long manuscripts or documents, but rather letters, which by their very nature are very short. (Although it was not uncommon for two or three enciphered letters with the same key to be intercepted). So I don't think the kinds of issues that you suggest were ones that they seriously considered.
I suspect that their thought process was not:
1) We are writing a scientific document
2) It is vital that it is kept secret
3) We must devise a cipher to keep it secret.
4) We must cater for the scenario that someone intercepts the manuscript and tries to break its cipher.
But rather
1) We are writing a scientific document
2) This would be a great opportunity to implement or exhibit, if only to ourselves, the cutting edge ciphers we have developed.
Maybe they really were concerned about others stealing the manuscript and discovering its secrets, but I think that if they weren't cipher enthusiasts they wouldn't have tried to create a cipher with which to write the manuscript. So in one sense their first thought was not about how they can prevent someone deciphering the manuscript. However again this is human psychology and so pure speculation.
(28-08-2022, 03:32 PM)tavie Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If the mind(s) behind the Voynich knew enough about cyphers to design/adapt and use one but lacked practical experience or knowledge of how cyphers are attacked, that is one explanation of why this general principle wasn't followed.
I am sure they were in the habit of trying to crack the ciphers of those letters the Duchy of Milan had intercepted of their political rivals. However they weren't intercepting 200+ page manuscripts.
(28-08-2022, 03:32 PM)tavie Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Alternatively, they may only have wanted to protect the text from cursory snooping and never expected it to be subject to lengthy cryptanalysis.
I think that most likely.
(27-08-2022, 12:21 AM)Hermes777 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.A while ago I compiled a list of structural obstacles and sources of frustration to be encountered in the study of the Voynich manuscript. Here are some:
*Compartmentalization
Occasionally you hear someone saying “Maybe we need an interdisciplinary approach to this?” Do you reckon?
I think one problem is that most Voynich researchers don't specialise in any given area of the manuscript. They tend to jump around from topic to topic. So at the moment we don't have many people with skills in different disciplines in order to have an interdisciplinary approach.
(27-08-2022, 12:21 AM)Hermes777 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.*Careerism
Academics are career driven. They are not the paragons of objectivity they pretend to be. There are no careers in Voynich Studies and academics stay right away from it because it is perceived as a bad career move.
(The Dead Sea Scrolls are the classic case of this. Scandalously, for years after they were discovered academics were not interested because there were no careers in it. For several decades the whole thing was left to the Dominicans because monks don’t have careers and are not puffed up egotists.)
I think that many academics are wary of getting involved in the Voynich just, because there are a lot of academics who have ended up with egg on their face after producing solutions that have subsequently been demonstrated as flawed. There is a lot to lose in terms of reputation from getting involved in Voynich research. If an academic has tenure then it makes it somewhat easier, but still there is scope for reputational damage. It is hard to have any academic posts in the Voynich manuscript as nobody really knows much about the Voynich for certain. Who would be appointed to the academic post? You can find one or two researchers who like to think of themselves as experts on the Voynich manuscript, but the truth is that if one compares what they know about the Voynich manuscript compared with what they don't know you will find out that they know almost nothing about the manuscript. I think someone who knows almost nothing about something cannot sensibly be considered to be an expert.
If I was a professional academic then I would be wary of researching the Voynich for career reasons; if one has a family to support etc. one has to be practical.
(27-08-2022, 12:21 AM)Hermes777 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.*Conceptual prisons
In general, the modern mind struggles to understand the medieval mind. This is endemic in Voynich Studies with many researchers entirely unaware of their own conceptual limitations, baggage and blindspots.
I am very wary of the concept of "the medieval mind", biological speaking medieval people have much the same brains as modern people. I am dubious that their motivations and goals are so different from ours. Of course they existed in a different intellectual environment, but I think it is easy to overestimate how different they really were from us.
(28-08-2022, 07:46 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.while it may seem a logical step to consider that the author of the Voynich MS could be someone in the forefront of cipher develpment, this is actually speculation,
I didn't start from the notion that the author was in the forefront of cipher development. I arrived at my candidate for authorship on the basis of my cartographic analysis of the Rosettes folio quite independent of the subject of cryptography. I, then, have gradually come to learn over time that his brothers were at the centre of cryptographic developments in the city state, Milan, which appears to have been innovating by developing the most advanced ciphers in the world at the time from which the Voynich dates. In fact ciphers which were not improved on in Milan for the rest of the century. These actually constitute two independent lines of reasoning which arrive at very similar conclusions.
1) My Rosettes analysis was independent of any cryptographic consideration as it predates any cipher research on my part.
2) My cryptographic analysis is independent of my Rosettes analysis as I have collected all the ciphers that I can from the time of the Voynich and for all sources. So my analysis has been as complete and general as I can be.
My Rosettes analysis -> Abbot Antonio Barbavara of isolated minor rural Abbey
My cryptographic analysis -> Milanese chancellery producing the most advanced ciphers in Europe at that time(The Ducal Secretary and Head of the chancellery was Francesco Barbavara from 1425 to 1434 and his brother Marcolino also played a significant role. There is concrete evidence that they both wrote the most advanced Milanese ciphers of the time. As head of the chancellery Francesco Barbavara would have been responsible for the cryptographic techniques used)
It could be argued that the fact that two independent lines of enquiry point in such similar directions is more than coincidence.
My Rosettes folio analysis illustrates a circular journey to and from the Council of Basel. A Papal council was called in Basel in 1430, so by analysis the Rosettes folio could not have been drawn before 1430.
Likewise, the proposed interpretations regarding the Order of the Golden Fleece would originate in 1430 in Burgundy.
Francesco Barbavera was an advisor to Gian Galeazzo Visconti, as you know.
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And GGV was first married to Isabella of Valois, who died in 1372 with their fourth child.
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She was part of the first Valois generation with the maternal Luxembourg connection [VMs Melusine], along with Jean, Duke of Berry (d. 1416), and Philip the Bold, Duke of Burgundy (d. 1404). This would be a potential explanation for the presence of a book about the "Chronique de Milan" in the death inventory of the library of Philip the Good (d. 1467). [KBR ms. 6263]
Philip the Good was significantly involved in the Council of Basel.
"
The "Holy Host" given to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. by Pope You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., was kept there in recognition of the support that the Duke of Burgundy had given him at the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. It was deposited by the canon of Paris, Robert Anclou, his representative in the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., in the chapel of the Holy Host which opened on the choir of the Sainte-Chapelle on the side of the Epistle."
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In the VMS Rosettes, the castle walls have swallowtail merlons, while in the Barbavara insignia above, the merlons are square.
(14-09-2022, 07:18 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In the VMS Rosettes, the castle walls have swallowtail merlons, while in the Barbavara insignia above, the merlons are square.
Yes, that's true, but I don't think the swallowtail merlons on the Rosettes page represent the Barbavara insignia. I think they represent the Castello di Porta Giovia and the Murata in Bellinzona(between top left and centre left rosettes) respectively. As a side note there are swallowtail merlons now at the Abbey of Saints Nazarro and Celso where Antonio Barbavara was Abbot.
(14-09-2022, 07:18 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Francesco Barbavera was an advisor to Gian Galeazzo Visconti, as you know.
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It is important to note that they were 2 Francesco Barbavara's both very closely related.(Uncle and Nephew). The Francesco Barbavara who effectively ran the administration of Duke of Milan, Gian Galeazzo Visconti, is elder of the two. He died in 1415. The Francesco Barbavara that I refer to with respect to the authorship of the Voynich manuscript was Ducal Secretary to Duke of Milan, Filippo Maria Visconti, from 1425 and ran the Milanese Chancellery.
I decided, as I am busy and bored, probably two bad reasons for doing something, I would attach my map analysis as it might give some researchers something to chat about. I have an image file of 66MB. Is that too large to upload here, and if it is then how do I upload it?