(19-07-2022, 07:18 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I also wonder, for native speakers, how much difference there is between the sound of 'Flug' and the sound of 'Fluch', which is the word for a curse.
The difference between 'Flug' and 'Fluch' is significant in pronunciation. There should be no connection. It is something different with the word "Pflug" (plow). The "P" can be "omitted" in the pronunciation, depending on the region in Germany. However, I do not know if a plow could be relevant in heraldry ( Wikipedia says that it is).
edit: "Flug" (pl. Flüge), also "Flügel", is a term for both wings of a bird in heraldry.
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I wouldn't get too hung up on the head yet. There is a hole in the parchment here, which complicates matters, and most importantly, the VM has the habit of omitting the heads of its root-creatures.
What I find most telling, and would suggest as a subject for further research, is the particular arrangement of the feathers. We clearly see that the top feathers are a bit larger than the midsection, and they extend upwards, above where the head would be. I thought this was un-heraldic, but apparently Nick has shown that at least one example exists of wings precisely like this. So if someone wanted to get to the bottom of this (and not just slap on the heraldic eagle of their preferred house), I think the best starting point would be to look for this type of wings.
If someone has a copy of Curse, it would also be interesting to read what Nick wrote about this, and which image he referred to.
I am not claiming that the roots are actual depiction of a coats of arms, because the connection between Northern Italy, Tyrol, Carinthia and Carniola go far further into the history. Assuming the author of the VM was a monk, mystic and humanistic writer, he would explore the ROOTS of religious schism, which go to ancient Aquileia (Aquila is Latin for eagle).
I don't know what the natives called Aquileia, but Slovenians always refer to it as OGLEJ (in English, that would mean 'look around'.
From there, the early Christianity spread like EAGLES WINGS, or perhaps the Winds (Vends) spread it.
Christianity came to that region from Aquileia before it became Roman state religion, and before the Langobards came to Northern Italy and brought Arian Christianity there. (By Arian, I do not mean in a nationalistic sense, but the teaching of Arius.) According to Paul the Deacon, the Langobards had to get permission to cross the 'provincia sclaborum' (I suppose this is how the historian of the Langobards re-named the ancient Veneti, while Germans applied the word Wends for them. In 553, under patriarch Macedonius, Liguria and Amilia, and Venetia and Istria broke off the communion with Rome.
In the 15th century, there was a threat that those regions will break away with Rome again. The Patriarchat of Aquileia was dissolved, but its conflicts with Rome did not end and those who searched for the ancient religious roots were persecuted and often ended on the stakes.
I suppose the heraldry works in different principles than art, but they both work on similar principle: in rearranging the symbols to leave recognizable clues. The art work has the advantage that certain symbols can apply for all the times and all places - like association of eagle with divinity.
It sure does look like a crow. That full-faced, single-headed version is strange. If it wasn't for the Austrian insignia, you might wonder. And what's with the hammer and sickle? What era is that one from? Older examples generally don't hold any sort of objects.
Also note the tails here and elsewhere. There is a tail - and feathers come off the tail. The VMs roots illustration just has the feathers as indicated above.
The erect feathers are an unusual feature, but color, as stated in the blazon, is also significant.
There are also ( black ) eagles with raised wings in heraldic books. Here are two examples from BSB Cod.icon. 308:
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So this kind of depiction seems not to have been so unusual, even if the wings do not extend far above the head.
What I find so unusual in the match between Nick's example and the VM root is not only the position of the wings but also the proportion of the feathers (larger on top). Also, feathers pointing upwards instead of the typical multiple bicep look. If this example didn't exist, might dismiss this as 'VM being weird', but the fact that it does exist makes it quite intriguing.
Did anybody wonder what three eagles and a goat are doing on the same heraldic image? I don't know when the goat became the coats of Arms of Istria, however the town of Koper was associated with goats even before Romans - it was called Abida - Greek for Goat Town. Veneti were worshippers of goats - in Trento region, the Steinbock was associated with deity. In Slovenian language, bock sounds like Bog (god). There is an old Slovenian legend about the Stainbock with a golden horn in Trento region, which is an allusion to God-seekers (mystics). And, of course, we cannot forget the Venetic god Pan, which was usually portrayed with a goat's head. According to ancient writers, god Pan died after Jesus was born. This might even explain the missing Capricorn. But then, again, the two Aries look like something between a goat and a ram.
(19-07-2022, 07:18 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Has anyone ever seen a headless eagle in heraldry?
Me, on Wikipedia, in particular
(19-07-2022, 11:28 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....the division of the VM's feathers is decidedly un-heraldic
What is the source of your conclusions, Koen?