(16-07-2022, 02:26 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The manuscript has been carbon dated to 1404-1438. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. let us know that a medieval costumes expert (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. from the Morgan Library) dated the costumes of Virgo and Sagittarius to the 1420’s.
The way I understand is that the VM could not be created earlier than 1404, but the 1438 is not fixed; it only means that the animal used for parchment was killed by then. Is it possible that it was created 20 years later? I suppose the monasteries could have had a supply of old parchment.
Also, the attire of Virgo and Sagittarius does not necessarily represent the mid-15th century fashion. The female in Virgo looks like Barbara of Celje, portrayed before 1409 by Bavarian artist Konrad Kyeser in his Bellafortes, except that on that picture she is on the horse and facing the opposite way. But she is holding a star on the flag. The picture was made while he was in Prague. Sigismund was engaged to Barbara in 1405, while he was King of Hungary (and also the region where I believe the VM was created).
The VM was created at the time when Sigismund was the Emperor and Barbara was already dead. If he was writing in Slovenian, he would also have a respect for her, who was a well educated woman and great alchemist. Koen suggested that the Gemini represents 'the Twins getting married'. This is probably what the author of the VM wanted to portray: a couple that is a complete opposite. The female in Gemini also has similar attire. This is suggestive that the author had a particular person and particular couple in mind.
If the Author of the VM would try to portray Barbara, he could have copied Kyeser's picture - a youthful face, flowy blue dress, yellow hair with blue head-covering.
(16-07-2022, 05:06 PM)cvetkakocj@rogers.com Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The female in Virgo looks like Barbara of Celje, portrayed before 1409 by Bavarian artist Konrad Kyeser in his Bellafortes, except that on that picture she is on the horse and facing the opposite way.
Barbara of Celje is indeed an interesting personality in connection with the VMS. I once opened a thread on this topic.
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Heraldic images provide heraldic terminology. In the case of the nebuly line, whether the term derives from the Latin (nebula) or the Germanic word for cloud (Wolke) the etymological connection is cloud-based. This is valid in French, English, German, Spanish, Italian and Dutch.
When it comes to the obscure heraldic pattern found on tubs in VMs Pisces (outer ring, abt. 11 o'clock) and VMs Dark Aries (inner ring, abt. 10 o'clock), the one that looks like fish scales, the terminology is split. Only English, French and Italian usen terms that are based on derivations of the "papillon" word for butterfly, with reference to the scales on a butterfly's wing, it is said. Other languages use terms that simply refer to scales in general, minus the butterfly connection.
The placement of these two tub patterns corresponds in quadrant and in sphere with the two blue-striped tub patterns on VMs White Aries. Only the terms beginning with 'pape..' match the French word for pope (pape) and affirm the correspondence with the heraldic representations of Innocent IV and Adrian V (the Fieschi popes) through the structural placement of the images.
The time and place of VMs creation cannot be pinned down as easily as some would like. The C-14 dates for parchment production are not necessarily the dates of VMs creation, (but they are a good place to start.) The single source interpretation for the four parchment samples is reasonable, but not the only possibility. The C-14 test data has an inherent error of several decades, and, like a weak telescope that is unable to resolve a binary star, there may be more than one source date for the parchment. The most problematic sample is the youngest, which is another potential indicator of a slightly more recent VMs creation.
What about the Golden Fleece, the 'Oresme' cosmos, Melusine and all that? It doesn't matter much where the VMs author was sitting when the VMs was created. What matters is that person's life experiences and travels and what they chose to record. Dijon was the capital of the state of Burgundy and the star of the north in 1400s. An informed person would know much about it, even from a distance.
(16-07-2022, 04:45 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I wouldn't commit myself directly to the Ladin dialect now either. It refers to a region.
Perhaps it is also an unfortunate choice.
There are also Rhaetian, Dolomitic and Friouli.
Here, one should learn something about the empires of Raecia and Noricum and their languages, and the development up to the present day.
Invasion of the Roman Empire by the Bavarians and Alemanni around 500.
I personally exclude the German language (Alemannic) from the Swiss side. I can't see it in the VM like that. But the Bavarian language is. Therefore rather from the eastern side (Carinthia).
I think I would recognise my dialect.
Here is a language example. Imagine that in an Italian crossroads.
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Scanning over the voluminous and very uneven history of Voynich theories, there is a substantial body of opinion that places the ms. in alpine northern Italy. But such theories then diverge east or west. It seems the larger body of opinion looks towards the west and the Switzerland side of northern Italy. I am not sure why, although people are often guided by the French month names on the zodiac pages.
I find a much stronger case for eastern alpine Italy - the Tyrol. As you say Aga, it's a region, and it has a very complex linguistic history.
Which is also a hint, I see on one side but not on the other.
So the crown is a clue.
While the Habsburg has a jagged crown, the Italian has a cloverleaf (House of Savoy) and the French fleur de Lyss.
If I were to assume Bellinzona as the centre, Savoy would be on the left and Habsburg on the right.
Since the Habsburgs didn't have much to say in the Gotthard region after 1290, and the language doesn't allow it for me, I see it more in the east than the west.
Although I have to say that western northern Italy (Aosta) used to be my favourite.
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Then there is another written reference.
Using a "y" in German as "und" only occurs in one region.
I cannot say whether this spelling was adopted from Slavic. Perhaps cvetkakocj knows more about this.
(16-07-2022, 08:06 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The C-14 test data has an inherent error of several decades, and, like a weak telescope that is unable to resolve a binary star, there may be more than one source date for the parchment. The most problematic sample is the youngest, which is another potential indicator of a slightly more recent VMs creation.
The first sentence is correct. The second is statistically incorrect. For a complete interpretation see:
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Summary: all four samples are statistically equivalent. None are an exception with respect to the other three. By definition, there is one that has the oldest centre of the probability distribution, and there is one that has the youngest. It is not valid to single out any of these apparent extremes.
(17-07-2022, 06:52 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (16-07-2022, 08:06 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The C-14 test data has an inherent error of several decades, and, like a weak telescope that is unable to resolve a binary star, there may be more than one source date for the parchment. The most problematic sample is the youngest, which is another potential indicator of a slightly more recent VMs creation.
The first sentence is correct. The second is statistically incorrect. For a complete interpretation see:
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Summary: all four samples are statistically equivalent. None are an exception with respect to the other three. By definition, there is one that has the oldest centre of the probability distribution, and there is one that has the youngest. It is not valid to single out any of these apparent extremes.
As an academic I studied the Dead Sea Scrolls for 20+ years. From that experience I am wary of putting absolute faith ("scientism") in carbon dating, and even more wary of palaeography (which in the case of the Scrolls was a circus.) These are tools, and relatively blunt tools for all of that. I don't feel straightjacketed by them or intimidated by forensics. I'm looking at a 1450s scenario. The carbon dating terminus is 1438. On a small sample from a 600 year old document, I don't regard a leeway of a dozen years fatal to my argument.
The C-14 dating is generally useful to establish a ball-park and eliminate dates too early or too late. It's a great guide for that. Thankfully, we can now rule out all the 1500s scenarios, for instance, and importantly our document is before the discovery of the Americas. It flatters carbon dating to insist on a window of exactly 1404-1438 for the manuscript. I'm comfortable looking somewhat either side of that window.
(17-07-2022, 08:22 AM)Hermes777 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As an academic I studied the Dead Sea Scrolls for 20+ years. From that experience I am wary of putting absolute faith ("scientism") in carbon dating, and even more wary of palaeography
Attacks to "scientism" are such a popular straw-man argument that you can find web pages devoted to discussing the subject. E.g.:
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Quote:People seem to think that accusing their opponent of scientism is a valid substitute for presenting actual evidence to back up their position. Further, at least in instances that I have personally observed, this accusation is often a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. that either misrepresents scientism or misrepresents the science-advocates’ claims.
In this case, both observations apply.
(17-07-2022, 08:22 AM)Hermes777 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.On a small sample from a 600 year old document, I don't regard a leeway of a dozen years fatal to my argument.
I also think that a few years above the established C14 framework is not a problem. Science is always moving and evolving. There are always new, complementary methods of investigation to further support or refute existing results. In VMS, for example, there are ways to study the age of ink ( proteins ) that are not used only because they are ( still ) too invasive. However, it is probably only a question of time until practicable procedures are developed here. One may be curious.