(23-04-2022, 09:19 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The good part of the paper appears to be derived from Rene's work You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: three concentric wheels with Voynichese prefixes, stems and suffixes form a verbose cipher that could encode the letters of an ordinary alphabet. A while ago, I illustrated the idea in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ("ant" is encoded as "qokedy"). In his paper, Rene discusses some of the potential problems with this idea.
Despite the statement that "Each word in the Manuscript, such as
kchdy, must be broken down into INITIAL, MEDIAL and FINAL tokens" this is not what is done in the decoding example on the same page. There are "placeholder" (null) characters and even without them, I see several finals (green) in succession, missing initial, missing medial, etc. so it looks like every component is optional. There is also a 4th "outer" component that seems to be surrounded only by optional nulls.
There are many possible ambiguities (I don't know how they can be resolved):
outer
ts = initial
t, medial
s
outer
tche = initial
t, medial
che
medial
ol = final
ol
initial
d, final
aiin = final
daiin
etc.
(23-04-2022, 08:13 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[I was a bit doubtful about your illustration of the red headed lady in "a typical Ottoman headdress", so I ran it through Google images.
Turns out the nice lady is a character from the online role playing game for "A land of fire and ice" called Lady Nymella Toland. Not, I suggest, a great example for your theory. Not does she appear to have anything to do with the Ottomans in the 15th century.
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Please don't believe everything you see on the internet. Search engines do not always ensure that you get accurate information. But if you research, you will get more accurate information.
Her name is Meryem Uzerli.
Meryem Sarah Uzerli is Turkish-German actress and model who rose to prominence by playing Hürrem Sultan in the Turkish TV series "Muhteşem Yüzyıl (2011–2013)" about Ottoman era, for which she received critical acclaim and won numerous accolades, including a Golden Butterfly Award.
See:
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I remember reading newspaper reports that the clothes designed for the Magnificent Century TV series were prepared by adhering to the familiar clothes and styles of the Ottoman period. There were probably those who criticized the clothes made for the series. I don't know if the clothes reflect the 15th or 16th century. There is some articles on these topics, but unfortunately, most of them are in Turkish.
It is written that 5000 clothes were designed for this series. There are those who say that these designs are made in a realistic way, and the woman in the image is Meryem Uzerli, and the outfit seen in the image is a scene from the TV series that tells about certain events in the Ottoman Period that I mentioned here "Muhteşem Yüzyıl".
I haven't watched this series. But I showed the photo to the audience and they said that this outfit was used in this serial, and they said that all the clothes were prepared by taking into account the old styles. Those who want to investigate Ottoman-era women's clothing or the pool, hamam, spa and harem venues and clothing in more detail can check the information I have given here and look for more overlap.
Muhteşem Yüzyıl Magnificent Century Documentary Part 1:
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Magnificent Century Episode 1 | English Subtitle: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
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A beautiful film, I'm sure.
The time can be precisely narrowed down on the basis of the film. Suleyman I, and the naval battle with the Spanish in 1533- 35 under Khair ad-Din Barbarossa. Beginning of the video.
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It is not what is seen in the film that is important, but what is typically Ottoman that is not in the VM.
Oh right, fair enough.
Still not 15th century, however.
What do you mean by:
Quote:But I showed the photo to the audience and they said that this outfit was used in this serial
What audience?
Hi Everyone,
Of cause you asked about Hurrem Sultan the women in the picture was the de facto female Sultan born Ukrainian with red hair and wore Ottoman forehead ornaments.
In the 2011 Turkish TV series “ Magnificent Century” the producers researched every detail of the epoch around 1500.
The Voynich Revisionist publishes more convincing details of the ROS map, but without identifying the center as clearly being Islamic. The Geographical Centre of Earth, were north meets south, and east meets west has always been Constantinople (Istanbul). In 2003 Holger Isenberg adjusted the world's geographical center via calculations by a global digital surface model to the Çorum province, 600 km to the east. I understand it is difficult to accept, but the VM is without doubt produced in the context of the Ottoman Empire, because 4 visible and many circumstantial facts point to that.
Statistical analysis of VM syllables including their position in the word clearly show three groups of 17 for normal and two groups of 34 for _oX and _4oX words. This points to the proposed 4 dial 68 segment Cipher disk. Only for less than 20 per disk or 80 letters per 4 disks, a disk encryption makes sense. The settings of the disks therefore change to the first four tokens of every chapter marked by the single stem gallows, what makes a frequency analysis almost impossible. This procedure to encode large text with a cipher disk without codebook, is as far as we know not mentioned anywhere, so it is still patentable. 99.5% of the VM chapters can be tokenized with this procedure without ambiguities, so again it may be difficult to accept, but the chapters of the VM are cipher disk encoded secret text.
Stand alone words can not be encoded by this procedure, because the settings of the disks are not clear. Here each Voynich characters represents a sound so the word pronounces as if spoken in the original language (e.g. like the Arabic chat alphabet).
We need to concentrate now on the translation of the chapters and the words.
Any help is appreciated, we provide any information needed.
Thanks
(28-04-2022, 06:21 PM)Vfind Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Statistical analysis of VM syllables including their position in the word clearly show three groups of 17 for normal and two groups of 34 for _oX and _4oX words. This points to the proposed 4 dial 68 segment Cipher disk. Only for less than 20 per disk or 80 letters per 4 disks, a disk encryption makes sense. The settings of the disks therefore change to the first four tokens of every chapter marked by the single stem gallows, what makes a frequency analysis almost impossible. This procedure to encode large text with a cipher disk without codebook, is as far as we know not mentioned anywhere, so it is still patentable. 99.5% of the VM chapters can be tokenized with this procedure without ambiguities, so again it may be difficult to accept, but the chapters of the VM are cipher disk encoded secret text.
Hi,
There are many things that I don't quite understand. Thanks for explaining to me (in private messages) some tokenization rules that are not obvious, I am not sure I get them completely. I'll have to write a program to check for inconsistencies, then I'll post the results.
As you know almost every paragraph has on its first line one or several single stem gallows. Why so many of them when one would be enough? Are most of them nulls? By chapter, do you mean paragraph?
I don't understand the groups of 17. For a language with 33 letters + space, why restrict so much the possibilities when there is room for 68 on each wheel or 34 to make it easier to read?
A simple deterministic verbose cipher for a short English plaintext made with 3 tokens per ciphertext word, no nulls, is already hard to crack. See the thread about You are not allowed to view links.
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Login to view.. I think I got the tokenization right (mostly, a few errors in low frequency tokens is not really a problem) but making sure that there is no other possibility is not trivial. Then there are 3 alphabets to map to the tokens. That's a lot for such a short ciphertext: frequencies are not helpful except for the few most frequent tokens. There are possible cribs like "the" and "that" but they don't help much.
For 34 symbols (letters + space) in the plaintext and also a very short ciphertext (if there are different settings to find for every paragraph) it would be even harder.
Hi Everyone,
Thanks for the questions Nablator.
Imagine a wheel with 4 disks and 68 segments. Only 34 segments are readable the others are upside down, so practically you must turn the disks around to read them. Doing this, the disks would move against each other and loose the settings!
Only 34 segments on top are used, something heavy is put on the lower side of the disks so they won’t move alone, but still can be changed. The lower side of the disks (the other 34) are perfect copies of the upper, so when you turn the disks the upper 34 segments are always seen in perfect sequence(as on a small 34 disk). You still have to incline your head towards the shoulders which would be annoying so the 3 inner wheels only use 17 segments (repeated 4 times to guaranty the function). Now this 3 times 17 segments can easily be read from -45 to +45 degrees.
The most frequent letters are on this 51 segments which are needed 87% of the time, only half of the 34 on the outer disk (6.5%) require to incline the head. 51 on the inner plus 34 on the outer (_oX) plus 34 on the same outer but alternate mode (_4oX) equals 119 usable segments (X=any gallows).
Ottoman has not only 33 letters. All letters have up to 4 different forms of writing which are needed as are the 10 digits, so the 119 segments will hold all different information.
All this can be SEEN on page 57v.
If you take a closer look you see the Cipher disk before the code, say the original letter sequences are written in (a blank disk).
The single stem gallows are always read as the double stems (no Null). To hide them better one or more double stems are written as single stems in the line were the code had to be changed and this so far fooled everyone.
Everyone keep asking.
Thanks
Hi Vfind!
I'm still puzzled by your article.
About You are not allowed to view links.
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Login to view. : can you explain how you converted "
otaim dam alam" to "oya ik sakal ak"?
If I understand correctly what you propose, it should translate to 3+2+2 = 7 letters and spaces, not 15.