The Voynich Ninja

At first I aso thought those shapes could be crescents, but then I realized VM-internal evidence (which, I agree, should be considered first) argues against it.

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It appears that those shapes function like rays or flames, tongues of fire. 

Also, I personally doubt their number is relevant. If you draw a group of objects, they must by definition have a number. But in most cases, this number will be irrelevant. In the case of the top left rosette, the "flames" are not presented in a way that's easy to count (unevenly spaced, variably sized an shaped, asymmetrical). Nor are they clustered in easy to count groups. So it really feels like a stretch that the number should have a meaning here. For a strong contrast, see for example You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , we can count the leaves of this plant by just looking at them, without actually counting. Moreover, their number is immediately and powerfully relevant (6+6+1, or 12 at the bottom and an isolated one on top). To be clear, I have no idea about this plant, but I hope it illustrates what I mean about countability.

(17-07-2021, 06:11 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.At first I aso thought those shapes could be crescents, but then I realized VM-internal evidence (which, I agree, should be considered first) argues against it.
(image) 
It appears that those shapes function like rays or flames, tongues of fire.

 
I don't understand which evidence argues against that those shapes are crescents. Why are you sure they represent rays or flames. Even if the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. diagram looks similar to the diagram from La sfera or to pictures that reflect creation of the Sun and the Moon by God, it doesn't mean that the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. diagram has the same meaning, as it resembles and differs in the same time. 
The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and f70r diagrams clearly show the Sun with its rays, there is no doubt. In fact, it can turn out that there is no sun in all the three diagrams of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .  

Quote: Also, I personally doubt their number is relevant. If you draw a group of objects, they must by definition have a number. But in most cases, this number will be irrelevant. In the case of the top left rosette, the "flames" are not presented in a way that's easy to count (unevenly spaced, variably sized an shaped, asymmetrical). Nor are they clustered in easy to count groups.

Actually I wouldn't say it is hard for counting, but I don't mind that the number can be irrelevant in this case. Nevertheless it doesn't mean that it doesn't concern the Moon. Look at the opposite side of the foldout You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. : You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. contains diagrams with the sun and with the moon, obviously both should present on the Rosettes scheme. You can see that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , all its three images are connected to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , they have quite similar patterns and shapes that are repeated on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (Rosettes).

What I mean is that in f68r, the celestial body is surrounded by these crescent shapes. If we assume consistent pattern usage, then it seems more likely to me that this pattern represents some kind of rays rather than a circle of moons attached to a circle. 

Moreover, there are no examples of crescent moons lining a circle or oval like this, inside or outside. Admittedly, as far as I can tell mandorla shapes in general don't tend to have things attached to the inner rim, so it will be difficult to find an external parallel either way. 

Manuscript-internally, I would say that since these crescent shapes are found surrounding a heavenly body like rays (see my image above from 68r), they are likely some kind of rays.

I'll have to go with the flame interpretation also. In fact it could be argued that this is a simplified version of cosmic boundary of the flame-based variety, rather than the more common cloud-based variety. The same sort of substitution of simple for complex that occurs in the VMs cosmos (f68v3) with the nebuly line vs. the BNF Fr. 565 cosmos.

There's a good example of a fire-based cosmic boundary in the Bedford Hours. And it's French and VMs C-14 contemporary. Not to mention the Duke of Burgundy.

(17-07-2021, 09:01 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What I mean is that in f68r, the celestial body is surrounded by these crescent shapes. If we assume consistent pattern usage, then it seems more likely to me that this pattern represents some kind of rays rather than a circle of moons attached to a circle.

 
I understand what you mean, Koen. I also meant consistent usage, when I wrote about rays in the other diagrams of the VMs. To identify how is used the crescent-shaped pattern, you have to be sure in at least one case.

Quote:Moreover, there are no examples of crescent moons lining a circle or oval like this,...

I would add that there are no examples of such depiction and location of Christ's Wound, as well.

Quote:Manuscript -internally, I would say that since these crescent shapes are found surrounding a heavenly body like rays (see my image above from 68r), they are likely some kind of rays.

Please, reread my previous post. Rays in the VMs are depicted in usual recognisible way. If those crescents mean some kind of rays, thay, first of all, don't relate to the sun, and, possibly, depicted in such manner - to show their relation to the moon, but not the sun. Your suggestions! Why do they differ from the rays of the sun? What the kind of flame could they mean?

There is one more kind of rays on the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. And this kind really can be seen in medieval manuscripts.
The location is correct either in relation to the structure of the spheres in the rosette and to the location of the rosette in the diagram.

There can be different kinds of rays, depending on their intensity or the verbal description underlying the image. Pentecostal imagery for example tends to show smaller, sometimes almost triangular flames because of the description "tongues of fire". I included a few examples in the blog.



The best parallel for "mandorla with only flames inside" I found is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., though with a date of 1474 it is a bit late (which you don't seem to mind). There's also a pretty chalice between the dancers below, but that's beside the point.

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I must say Koen, your collection is very extensive.
For me, the pictures are just difficult to judge.
With so many books, it's like watching an ant on an anthill. It moves and shines everywhere.
But about the picture. It seems like you've seen this hole before.
Somewhere the size to hell was described.
I think of this place.

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I always look for a connection to reality.
The ideas have to come from somewhere.

Tongs of fire looks like tongs of fire, indeed. As you said, there must be consistency 

In this You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., for example, all the rays and flames look identical.

(17-07-2021, 10:43 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The best parallel for "mandorla with only flames inside" I found is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., though with a date of 1474 it is a bit late (which you don't seem to mind). 

As about me, I don't consider the left top rosette mandorla. I think, here, it is the Moon, but not just the Moon as a luminary, but its composed image that reflects its physical and esoteric essence and sacred meaning.
The Moon = celestial body = receptacle for the souls = Elysian fields = the wife of the sun = divine mother (womb) = mandorla = rebirth