The Voynich Ninja

(23-06-2021, 07:57 AM)Lordadef Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi there,

Can anyone explain what issue made Stolfi leave the Voynich research? I've seen this mentioned many times before but no one touches the subject. I would really like to know, it's a bit of history anyway.

Actually, Stolfi would be my choice.

I was not involved with Voynich studies when Prof Stolfi was active. But I have read posts from researchers who were. The sense I get is that Stolfi gracefully bowed out without much drama, because he found the dominant cliques in this scene not receptive to his ideas, and not particularly kind to him.

I also get the sense, after reading his whole website, that he said all he had to say on the topic, had no more to add, and was moving on to other interests and pursuits.

It takes a very thick skin to engage a clique of people who haven’t accepted you as a member, and sell them ideas that are new and unfamiliar. In a perfect world, good ideas with good data to back them up would be given a fair chance by any and all experts on the topic. Unfortunately, because we’re dealing with human beings with egos, biases, and vested interests, it’s rarely that simple.

I agree, it does take a thick skin, and some encouragement and genuine constructive criticism can make a world of difference. I am thankful for people like you, who don't necessarily dig themselves in somewhere but try to understand and meaningfully interact with various proposals.

(23-06-2021, 02:51 PM)RenegadeHealer Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(23-06-2021, 07:57 AM)Lordadef Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi there,

Can anyone explain what issue made Stolfi leave the Voynich research? I've seen this mentioned many times before but no one touches the subject. I would really like to know, it's a bit of history anyway.

Actually, Stolfi would be my choice.

I was not involved with Voynich studies when Prof Stolfi was active. But I have read posts from researchers who were. The sense I get is that Stolfi gracefully bowed out without much drama, because he found the dominant cliques in this scene not receptive to his ideas, and not particularly kind to him.

[...]

It takes a very thick skin to engage a clique of people who haven’t accepted you as a member,
[...]

This is quite sad to read.

Stolfi is not the only one to leave, but he is probably better known by modern Voynich enthousiasts than others.

We can regret the following important contributors to Voynich discussion fora, who decided to leave (or reduced their efforts) for their own personal reasons:
- Jim Gillogly
- Jim Reeds
- Jacques Guy
- Michael Roe
- John Groves
- Jorge Stolfi
- Rafal Prinke
- Gabriel Landini
- Dennis Stallings

This is just a short excerpt. Of the nine people named above, I have met six in person, including Stolfi, whom I met on two occasions. Quite appropriately, one was in Prague and the other in Rome/Frascati.

Stolfi stopped contributing around the year 2000.

What has been written about his reasons is nothing more than invented rumours.
I know where it is coming from.
The person who spread these rumours only joined the Voynich MS six or so years after Stolfi left.
This is the same person who once spread rumours that JKP is just a pseudonym for me.
The idea about a 'clique' is coming from the same direction.

Stolfi's models of the Voynichese word structure were very well received in the single Voynich forum at the time.

Stofi was quite fine and happy to join the conference in Villa Mondragone in 2012.

The reason he became inactive around 2000 is because of his professional duties and available time.

I know this to be true for Gabriel Landini as well, and can only assume that it is equally true for several of the others.

Disappointment with the level of discussion as the access to fora widened after the nineties is a likely second driver for some of the people who left later.

(24-06-2021, 03:09 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What has been written about his reasons is nothing more than invented rumours.
I know where it is coming from.
The person who spread these rumours only joined the Voynich MS six or so years after Stolfi left.
This is the same person who once spread rumours that JKP is just a pseudonym for me.
The idea about a 'clique' is coming from the same direction.

Haha, the JKP thing is new to me, it makes no sense. But yes, this person left a certain impression on newcomers, of people mocking each other and so on, while in reality this person was an actual source of such conflicts. Either way, the forum has been easier to manage for the last couple of years.

That said, it is still possible that people left the study because they didn't feel enough support. This is of course up to them to determine for themselves, and nobody is to blame for that situation.

Does the Voynich Mailing List still exist? I had to leave a while back as it became extremely polarized and irritating.

It's under new management. Talk to Rich SantaColoma.

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(24-06-2021, 03:09 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This is quite sad to read.
…
What has been written about his reasons is nothing more than invented rumours.
I know where it is coming from.
The person who spread these rumours only joined the Voynich MS six or so years after Stolfi left.
This is the same person who once spread rumours that JKP is just a pseudonym for me.
The idea about a 'clique' is coming from the same direction.

Wow. I appreciate you setting the record straight for me on this, Rene. I want no part of spreading misinformation and libel. Alienation, especially in the form of social defeat, sure motivates some strange and hurtful deeds.

I’ll readily admit I’m a mediocre skeptic; my natural predisposition is to validate and listen, and assume  a person has a reason for seeing and phrasing things the way they do, even if what they say shouldn’t be taken at face value. But I draw a firm line at personal attacks and baseless accusations. Sad indeed.

Feeling definitely sad, I find myself having to add JKP to this thread.

When I got started (about a year and 8 months ago) he was very active, very patient with requests and questions, and an amazing resource.  I know he was very busy, and maybe work has just become overwhelming.  I'm also a solo business owner and the world situation has made the psychology of all service industries a tough place.   Certainly harder to manage than 20 months ago.

I was really looking forward to his discussion about the possible copyist of that single page (f14v) and what insight it might bring.

Here's the last blog post if anyone hasn't heard of what I'm talking about.   There are a couple of strings on the forum about this, too . . . 


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But in any case, had to record my wish for his return to the forum and hope it's just a break and not a permanent stepping away.  Of course, there may be those on the forum that know the situation better than I, and I have no need to understand personal situations.  But I do wish him the best -- I relied heavily on his work to try to get up to speed on many aspects of the manuscript and thank him for that.

Yeah, the forum certainly isn't the same without JKP. I talked to him some time ago and he is doing well, but he has other real life occupations that take up his time. I do hope he can return some day.

I haven't seen @Helmut Winkler here in the forum for a while. His transliterations of Middle High German or Early New High German text snippets were often very helpful.