(13-07-2020, 02:29 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
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I would have thought that there are lots of relatively simple methods by combining the use of filler text with another simple rule to produce Voynich like text where the morphological regularities observed in Voynichese words are much more a function of the filler than the text.
The VMS text may seem deceptively simple, but try to create a rule-set that mimics the properties of VMS text as closely as possible. If you feel it's mostly filler-text, then the rule-set should mimic the filler text rather than any small proportion of meaningful text that you think might be hidden within it.
(13-07-2020, 09:22 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (13-07-2020, 02:29 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
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I would have thought that there are lots of relatively simple methods by combining the use of filler text with another simple rule to produce Voynich like text where the morphological regularities observed in Voynichese words are much more a function of the filler than the text.
The VMS text may seem deceptively simple, but try to create a rule-set that mimics the properties of VMS text as closely as possible. If you feel it's mostly filler-text, then the rule-set should mimic the filler text rather than any small proportion of meaningful text that you think might be hidden within it.
It doesn't require a formally defined rule set. I think a lot of it could be done on an ad hoc basis. This could be a situation where I know what the meaningful text is and then fill in something made up, but conforming to the format of Voynichese words. There would very likely be multiple possibilities for the filler text, rather than unique possibilities pre-determined by an algorithm. In so far as it would be formalisable the filler text would be generated by a combination of conformity to the Voynichese word structure and a very large random element of choice. However I don't think some random organised procedure for generating a filler text like a cardan grille is required just human invented nonsense in the style of Voynichese words would serve the purpose.
Of course there are myriad ways in which filler text could be implemented, so I am talking about a general principle than a specific example.
I wasn't talking theoretically, Mark.
Since you say it should be relatively easy, I would like to see an example. I'm sure the others would too. Create four or five pages of text that have the same properties as the VMS text.
I would not suggest taking whole tokens (similar to those in the VMS) and simply repeating them because if you do it that way, it does nothing to demonstrate that VMS "filler" text might be meaningless. It would have to be constructed out of "components" (however you wish to define those) that have Voynichese properties in order to fulfill the assertion that filler would be easy to create.
I agree with you that there are myriad ways to create filler. But I do not believe there are myriad ways to create filler that has the same structural properties as Voynichese. It is both quite specific and quite complex at the same time.
In one sense the filler text point is obvious. Filler text could cover the whole of the Voynich and so we would have a nonsense text manuscript. There could be just one word which is meaningful in the whole of the Voynich. Or there could be just one sentence that is meaningful. Or a total of one meaningful paragraph altogether. Now I am not suggesting in practice that there is such a small amount of meaningful text, but I am just trying to illustrate how the application of filler text can easily be used to mask a message, the greater the proportion of filler text the simpler the masking.
I don't think anyone would disagree that a large proportion of filler text could be used to mask a message. Steganography has been around for a long time and also existed in the Middle Ages.
What is at issue here is whether convincing filler can be created that has the same properties as Voynichese.
(13-07-2020, 09:57 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I wasn't talking theoretically, Mark.
Since you say it should be relatively easy, I would like to see an example. I'm sure the others would too. Create four or five pages of text that have the same properties as the VMS text.
I would not suggest taking whole tokens (similar to those in the VMS) and simply repeating them because if you do it that way, it does nothing to demonstrate that VMS "filler" text might be meaningless. It would have to be constructed out of "components" (however you wish to define those) that have Voynichese properties in order to fulfill the assertion that filler would be easy to create.
You might not have been talking theoretically that doesn't mean that I wasn't.
I don't like to be dictated to. I have no intention of producing 4 or 5 pages of text as that would be quite an effort with even the simplest of rule. I should add that if I go down that avenue I will be expected to provide a full decipherment of the Voynich or the argument about filler text would mistakenly not be considered valid.
You have to understand a simple point that one can never demonstrate, by it's very nature, that filler text is meaningless in any context. That is why one can never prove that the text of the Voynich is nonsense as there is always a possibility of a hidden meaning.
The idea that the filler would have to be constructed out of "components" that have Voynichese properties in order to fulfill the assertion that filler would be easy to create, really over complicates things.
As an example say every 10th symbol is a meaningful character and everything else is filler. The author just has to manually invent some filler that looks like Voynichese, they don't need to implement some component manipulation algorithm.
(13-07-2020, 10:00 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't think anyone would disagree that a large proportion of filler text could be used to mask a message. Steganography has been around for a long time and also existed in the Middle Ages.
What is at issue here is whether convincing filler can be created that has the same properties as Voynichese.
The term "steganography" goes back to Trithemius in the late 15th century. Do you have any examples of filler text being used in the early 15th century or before?
It does not seem difficult to produce convincing filler text that has the same kind of properties as Voynichese. If I gave you a pen and asked you to manually write down invented Voynichese like text, I don't think it should be that difficult for you. Human generated text is necessarily different from that formally generated using a specific algorithm.
Quote:The term "steganography" goes back to Trithemius in the late 15th century. Do you have any examples of filler text being used in the early 15th century or before?
Steganography takes many forms. It can be filler text. It can be a diagram that hides letters within the way it is drawn. It can be a page of text with letters in the vertical direction forming a hidden message (similar to anacrostics) and numerous other variations.
The latter example existed in the Middle Ages, before the 15th century. The concept existed long before there was a term to describe it.
So steganography in a number of forms existed pre-15th century.
I do not know if the specific steganography scenario you describe (a high proportion of meaningless filler text) existed in the 15th century or earlier. I have not seen any examples so far but that doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist.
Quote:I don't like to be dictated to. I have no intention of producing 4 or 5 pages of text as that would be quite an effort with even the simplest of rule. I should add that if I go down that avenue I will be expected to provide a full decipherment of the Voynich or the argument about filler text would mistakenly not be considered valid.
If you are going to repeatedly insist (as you have in numerous threads) that the VMS might be a fairly high proportion of filler text, and that it should be relatively easy to produce some sort of filler text then it is not me who is dictating to you, it is forum rules.
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Quote:I would have thought that there are lots of relatively simple methods by combining the use of filler text with another simple rule to produce Voynich like text where the morphological regularities observed in Voynichese words are much more a function of the filler than the text.
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If you have a theory, but you do not wish to produce examples of how this theory works, then as per forum rules, the theory should be kept to one thread.
(13-07-2020, 10:53 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote:The term "steganography" goes back to Trithemius in the late 15th century. Do you have any examples of filler text being used in the early 15th century or before?
Steganography takes many forms. It can be filler text. It can be a diagram that hides letters within the way it is drawn. It can be a page of text with letters in the vertical direction forming a hidden message (similar to anacrostics) and numerous other variations.
The latter example existed in the Middle Ages, before the 15th century. The concept existed long before there was a term to describe it.
So steganography in a number of forms existed pre-15th century.
I do not know if the specific steganography scenario you describe (a high proportion of meaningless filler text) existed in the 15th century or earlier. I have not seen any examples so far but that doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist.
Which is precisely why I strongly avoid the term "stegnography" as it can encompass the writing of a message on a shaved head and invisible ink which is pretty far removed from the kind of thing I am referring to.
You introduced in this discussion the term
"stegnography" regarding filler text, but to me that term confuses the issue as it is so general.
The first example of the use of filler text that I know of is that of Trithemius.