09-09-2020, 04:48 PM
09-09-2020, 05:14 PM
Hmm, here is something about a disease (dated June 17, 2020):
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Quote:Hannig claims that the Voynich manuscript was written in medieval Ashkenazi, the language of the European Eastern Jews. Hannig has just posted his findings on the Internet on sixty pages. An interview is not possible because the researcher fell ill at the worst possible time in his career (no, not Corona).
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09-09-2020, 05:35 PM
I just read the same thing in the Süddeutsche Zeitung.
It is not the only one where Hannig was cancelled.
So also other dates. One for Egyptian culture, would have been just around the corner. ( canceled )
I wish him a speedy recovery.
It is not the only one where Hannig was cancelled.
So also other dates. One for Egyptian culture, would have been just around the corner. ( canceled )
I wish him a speedy recovery.
12-09-2020, 06:31 PM
I would like to comment briefly here, because at one point in my prior research, I strongly considered the hypothesis that the language of the Voynich ms could be Hebrew. I did rather a lot of work pursuing and investigating this hypothesis. However, after much study and consultation with Hebrew scholars I had to reject the hypothesis for the following reason: To make sense of the text as Hebrew, I had to propose certain alternations of similar letters, which can sometimes occur in Hebrew; however, unfortunately, I was proposing them for words and forms which had well-known classical spellings established for millennia. Here is a brief excerpt of a question I posed to one Hebrew scholar, and his convincing answer (the exchange was conducted in Spanish):
"Igualmente, ¿sería probable el intercambio de alef o ayin por la letra he? Por ejemplo, מהל en lugar de מעל, o השר en lugar de אשר."
"Las letras guturales pueden intercambiarse pero no de esa manera que usted sugiere y mucho menos en esas palabras tan específicas. Sus casos estarían reflejando un hebreo hablado por un analfabeto lo cual en ese lugar y momento es imposible. Mucho menos si los intercambios son estables y permanentes."
The scholar's reply is worth translating: "The guttural letters can alternate with each other but not in this manner that you suggest, and much less so in these specific words. Such cases would have reflected a form of Hebrew spoken by an illiterate person, which in this place and time is impossible. Much less if the alternations are stable and permanent."
I considered this argument to be effectively the refutation of my Hebrew hypothesis. The main point is that anybody who would have known Hebrew at all in this period, would have known it in its classical literary form. In the late medieval period there weren't illiterate or semi-literate people who spoke Hebrew but didn't read or write it. So anyone who could have written such a manuscript in Hebrew, would have known the precise classical literary language with its established spellings. Of course they could have written it in a new script, or left-to-right, or what have you. But they wouldn't have been likely to change the spelling of which letters go where in which words, as I was proposing. If alef, ayin, and he were represented in the text in a certain way, they would have been represented consistently with their use in the established classical Hebrew spelling of words. I found that this argument posed an obstacle that was fatal for my Hebrew hypothesis of the Voynich ms.
Based on what I have read about Hannig's Hebrew theory of the Voynich ms, I would be very surprised if it can overcome the substantial obstacle that this basic but effective argument poses to any Hebrew hypothesis of this ms.
Geoffrey
"Igualmente, ¿sería probable el intercambio de alef o ayin por la letra he? Por ejemplo, מהל en lugar de מעל, o השר en lugar de אשר."
"Las letras guturales pueden intercambiarse pero no de esa manera que usted sugiere y mucho menos en esas palabras tan específicas. Sus casos estarían reflejando un hebreo hablado por un analfabeto lo cual en ese lugar y momento es imposible. Mucho menos si los intercambios son estables y permanentes."
The scholar's reply is worth translating: "The guttural letters can alternate with each other but not in this manner that you suggest, and much less so in these specific words. Such cases would have reflected a form of Hebrew spoken by an illiterate person, which in this place and time is impossible. Much less if the alternations are stable and permanent."
I considered this argument to be effectively the refutation of my Hebrew hypothesis. The main point is that anybody who would have known Hebrew at all in this period, would have known it in its classical literary form. In the late medieval period there weren't illiterate or semi-literate people who spoke Hebrew but didn't read or write it. So anyone who could have written such a manuscript in Hebrew, would have known the precise classical literary language with its established spellings. Of course they could have written it in a new script, or left-to-right, or what have you. But they wouldn't have been likely to change the spelling of which letters go where in which words, as I was proposing. If alef, ayin, and he were represented in the text in a certain way, they would have been represented consistently with their use in the established classical Hebrew spelling of words. I found that this argument posed an obstacle that was fatal for my Hebrew hypothesis of the Voynich ms.
Based on what I have read about Hannig's Hebrew theory of the Voynich ms, I would be very surprised if it can overcome the substantial obstacle that this basic but effective argument poses to any Hebrew hypothesis of this ms.
Geoffrey
13-09-2020, 12:52 PM
(12-09-2020, 06:31 PM)geoffreycaveney Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Based on what I have read about Hannig's Hebrew theory of the Voynich ms, I would be very surprised if it can overcome the substantial obstacle that this basic but effective argument poses to any Hebrew hypothesis of this ms.It would be interesting to hear Hannig`s statement on this matter. I could imagine that a criticism in a similar form could be formulated at the planned conference (assuming a native Hebrew speaker or expert will be present).
We can only wait and see if this conference still takes place. Another form of contact, e.g. by email, does not seem practicable at the moment.
13-09-2020, 02:53 PM
(09-09-2020, 05:14 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hmm, here is something about a disease (dated June 17, 2020):
Quote:Hannig claims that the Voynich manuscript was written in medieval Ashkenazi, the language of the European Eastern Jews. Hannig has just posted his findings on the Internet on sixty pages. An interview is not possible because the researcher fell ill at the worst possible time in his career (no, not Corona).
I do not want to speak negatively about a person with a serious illness. But at the same time, someone needs to say what I know many of us must be thinking: The timeline of events has quite coincidentally unfolded in such a way as to be potentially quite flattering to his reputation, at least among those laypeople who do not know enough about the Voynich ms to have learned to be very skeptical about proposed decipherings. Here is the narrative: "Scholar and researcher discovers a brilliant solution to a famous mysterious puzzle that no one has been able to solve for a century. But right on the eve of being about to prove it to the world, he fell seriously ill and was unable to answer all the questions to prove to everyone that his solution was correct." It is the stuff that people can spin legends about: "Alas, if only the great Herr Dr. Prof. Hannig had stayed healthy and been able to show the world his complete solution of the Hebrew Voynich manuscript. Now we'll never know..."
Again, I wish Herr Hannig well, I hope that he recovers from his illness, I wish him a speedy and complete recovery, and I hope that he enjoys good health and a long life. But that doesn't mean I think anyone should romanticize his proposed deciphering of the Voynich manuscript.
13-09-2020, 03:16 PM
I suspect that the writer of the Süddeutsche Zeitung would not have been so flippant about Hannig's health ( ... "no, not Corona" ) if it had been a really serious illness. One would not do that then. I also wish Mr. Hannig all the best and hope that he will soon be ready to answer the questions of the public.
31-05-2021, 11:55 AM
I have sent Dr. Hannig again an email with the inquiry whether still another press conference takes place. I received an answer from the Roemer- und Pelizaeus-Museum in Hildesheim.
Dr. Hannig is seriously ill. As soon as he can work again on the VMS it is planned to fix a new date for the conference.
Dr. Hannig is seriously ill. As soon as he can work again on the VMS it is planned to fix a new date for the conference.
31-05-2021, 09:01 PM
(31-05-2021, 11:55 AM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Dr. Hannig is seriously ill. As soon as he can work again on the VMS it is planned to fix a new date for the conference.Most unpleasant for him and I am sure we all wish him a speed recovery.
I am sure he is looking forward to presenting his work as soon as he is able.
13-07-2021, 10:46 PM
This is an old thread but something I read while investigating Roger Bacon in terms of hermetic belief struck me as possibly - remotely - pertinent. Please note that I am not a linguist! I mention this only because it seems like some of the objections to this professor's Hebrew theory might be resolved by an investigation into Bacon's somewhat vexed Hebrew grammar, if subsequent writers were to base their own "Hebrew" on it.
I couldn't understand most of what the article writers were referring to, but it turns out that Bacon's scribe wrote his Hebrew from left to right, and Bacon never got around to correcting it. Moreover, in reference to the one comment above re written vs spoken Hebrew, it seems Bacon relied on some oral sources - mostly Ashkenazi - for pronunciation schemes, but a lot on written Romanian Hebrew or Sephardic.
Bacon also wrote a Greek grammar more successfully. What I found interesting about this is how he would transliterate: the scholastic mnemonic method, and Bacon's intermediate word for word translations first before the complete translation.
I am interested myself in the images, and following up on my hypothesis we are dealing with someone who had read Bacon, Rupescissa, the Picatrix and other hermetic-based writing.
Therefore, it occurred to me while doing so that a linguist might find a fruitful field in Bacon's translation work to compare to the VMS patterns. Just a thought.
I couldn't understand most of what the article writers were referring to, but it turns out that Bacon's scribe wrote his Hebrew from left to right, and Bacon never got around to correcting it. Moreover, in reference to the one comment above re written vs spoken Hebrew, it seems Bacon relied on some oral sources - mostly Ashkenazi - for pronunciation schemes, but a lot on written Romanian Hebrew or Sephardic.
Bacon also wrote a Greek grammar more successfully. What I found interesting about this is how he would transliterate: the scholastic mnemonic method, and Bacon's intermediate word for word translations first before the complete translation.
I am interested myself in the images, and following up on my hypothesis we are dealing with someone who had read Bacon, Rupescissa, the Picatrix and other hermetic-based writing.
Therefore, it occurred to me while doing so that a linguist might find a fruitful field in Bacon's translation work to compare to the VMS patterns. Just a thought.