The Voynich Ninja

(14-07-2020, 05:38 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Construct a set of vords of the size N=12, such that one, and only one, vord of the set occurs in each of these folios. A member of the set can be repeatable in a folio, but two or more members shall not coexist within a folio.

If such set can be constructed, then we have Zodiac names in Voynichese.

That's a very interesting idea, but obviously there are a few catches. The zodiac names could be abbreviated in different ways, for example.

Worse, if the 'encryption' method is verbose, this will not work at all.....

Finally, I am not that sure that any herbals from the same time frame mention one zodiac sign in each of their descriptions / recipes....

Hi Anton , thank you for explaining.

Just to be clear then:

A word must exist( >=1 times ) in 1 Herbal page only and that word must also exist( >=1 times ) in 1 zodiac page only and can occur multiple times anywhere else.


Using TTtransciption, found 44 words fitting this definition (non-definitive 1st pass only, there may well be more ).

Sample : otoaiin, chedain, arol, oteod.[attachment=4562]

Just a stray thought. Why fish for months when there are 12? If the text of the large plants section is medical, and in any way follows the traditional four humors ideology, then it should should subscribe to the cross-pairing of pairs.

Traditional example in medieval medicine:
Temperature: hot or cold
Moisture: Wet or dry
Cross-paired pairs: hot & wet, hot & dry; cold & wet, cold & dry.

It needn't be a specific example, but as a general structure it would tend to indicate sense more than nonsense.
And it only takes four vords.

Hi Rob,

I'm a bit hesitating (because you obviously put certain effort in this!) to tell you that you got it wrong again.  

Quote:A word must exist( >=1 times ) in 1 Herbal page only

No, that's wrong. A word must exist (>=1 times) at least in 1 Herbal page (not in 1 page only). Suppose we had 24 Herbal pages where each Zodiac sign is associated to two different plants (2x12 = 24). Then each word would exist in 2 Herbal pages.

Of course I suppose that with that large number of Herbal pages there will be no Zodiac signs left without associated plants - hence "must" (vs "may"). 

The point is that two different words shall not exist in the same Herbal folio simultaneously. It's OK if Aries exists in 10 folios, and Libra exists in 13 folios, as long as they do not coexist in one and the same folio.

(15-07-2020, 08:29 PM)RobGea Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.that word must also exist( >=1 times ) in 1 zodiac page only

No, this requirement is an excess constraint. On the contrary, I believe that Zodiac names rather would not occur in Zodiac pages, and, on the whole, I have a feeling that there is utmost caution there by not including plant names in plant folios, not including Zodiac names in Zodiac charts, not including continent names in T-O-maps, etc. Which is really very, very clever - or some really weird side effect of the whole design.

So in a nutshell, there are no requirements or constraints outside of the Herbal folios, the search can be done just against the 128 Herbal folios ( (which is 129 without f65r).

(15-07-2020, 06:27 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.That's a very interesting idea, but obviously there are a few catches. The zodiac names could be abbreviated in different ways, for example.

Worse, if the 'encryption' method is verbose, this will not work at all.....

Finally, I am not that sure that any herbals from the same time frame mention one zodiac sign in each of their descriptions / recipes....

Yes, of course. That's just an idea inspired by a passing observation (which may be a missed shot altogether).

(15-07-2020, 09:18 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Just a stray thought. Why fish for months when there are 12? If the text of the large plants section is medical, and in any way follows the traditional four humors ideology, then it should should subscribe to the cross-pairing of pairs.

Traditional example in medieval medicine:
Temperature: hot or cold
Moisture: Wet or dry
Cross-paired pairs: hot & wet, hot & dry; cold & wet, cold & dry.

It needn't be a specific example, but as a general structure it would tend to indicate sense more than nonsense.
And it only takes four vords.

Yes, that's definitely another option for the search.

But this is generalized by that we impose a homogenous set of notions (Zodiac signs, elements, humours, whatever) upon another homogenous set (the plants), and by way of hypothesizing that there has to be some sort of mapping between the two we try to deduce the Voynichese rendering of the former set.

If we fail for Zodiac, nothing prevents us from trying humours. After all, if there is meaning at all in those scribbles, they must be about something (and most probably something practical).

Sorry Anton , thanks for explianing where i went wrong, will try again. :need more coffee:

(13-07-2020, 03:08 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Semi-offtopic: why take the extra time and effort to create a notch in the inner connection for each of the spokes?

It gives it a 3d quality. 

The fabric of space? 

A void (blue) filled with stars (asterisks) and cosmic rays (red)(fire)

I think the face could be the new moon. This is from a 9th century depiction of the Metonic cycle. See the circle bottom left, near the top of it.



Although i do agree it would be the sun giving off the rays, so a solar eclipse maybe? That is when you can see those rays the best.

The half division with the blue, not sure, could also depict day and night? Water and earth? I think some have thought the asterisks to be vegetation in a garden...not the same as the stars? If the latter, the suns rays are fire...fire and air go up, water and earth down, maybe that is why the 3d depiction?

I feel like if we hit upon the correct idea, the verbal "translation" of what we see will give us words that will make sense in some way, like matching a description of medieval or ancient cosmology. For instance, perhaps there is a face on the sphere because it was thought that heavenly bodies had souls and/or intelligences moving them. This would apply to both the sun and the moon, among others.

Have to figure out which view it is describing, if it is one that can be identified.

New moon seems a good thought. Metonic cycle though is 19 years.

Now the primary translation of 67r1 for the paragraph and inner circle, is done and I will share some words that can be astronomical:

هور< هار
Har> hur
Sun

پاتو = پاتو
pato
House of Mercury or House of Mars

مدریة =مدریت
madariat
Orbits

بدر=بادر
badr
Full moon

جهمه<جهمود
The beginning of the last quarter of night, the darkness of late night


Notice the transcript is not following the omission rules in some areas


The unreadable sentences would be somehow meaningful after changing reading frame:
  
پتد شم جتو تبارد سو دهم وجد ثمر دریدش کدری هر شود تا مدریة رتجهمود شم اریو هری هدایت و سیر پاتو

I go to ..., cold.., Finding the fruit harvest, darkness of sun will be to the orbits .. darkness of late night..,The sun guide and the moving of Mercury/Mars


In the circular writings the inner circle would give meanings with same process as:

ارا تدرک دیری ود تا دریا آتش اثر حد پتو سیر بدری تش هر عمود بد

I see , to get to (3sg) , bygone , mark of fire is to the sea , border of the Mercury/Mars' moving, in the fire the sun is vertical.


There are some words which might mislead, such as whether the بدری comes from بدر or به +در ...