(26-08-2019, 01:39 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hello raven,
It would be better if the subtitles ( and images ) were shown longer. In my opinion, one could then read it more easily and at the same time follow the image sequences.
I agree. the lengths of the automatically added subtitles always need length adjustment in YT composer. I recently did arabic subtitles to an english video, and though I had the cue-lines prepared by native speaker, they needed adjustment.
nice 3D graphics!
(26-08-2019, 08:32 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.One thing is a pity.
You say that you expect that people are probably not ready to accept it.
In the video, you also say that this is because perhaps they don't have an open mind.
For me, that is a bad start. It is better to present your evidence first, and then draw a conclusion.
Over the last 100 years, thousands of people have looked at the Voynich MS. A number of these people are very knowledgeable about historical documents from all over the world.
Their opinions are very important, and tell us a lot about what the Voynich MS can be.
Oooo! I think I made a serious mistake! Excuse me! My fault. I didn't take help while writing the text. It was my English!
"
you also say that this is because perhaps they don't have an open mind." No. Especially I noticed to use everytime "us". In Turkish this is a mold. Not for you, for all of us. Because in the beginning of my research ı thought too. I worked to say we think in same loop! "We"... Never to criticize you. I never say "[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]don't have an open mind" for you. I'm trying to tell "we are", "us"... in a vicious circle. Excuse me again.[/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]"That people are probably not ready to accept it" is it not real! If ı didn't saw alot of thing in this book, if another man said this is from Mesoamerica, ı dont accept easily! It is very normal. Because all the drawings similar to Europe, all the book's history is passing in Europe! Letters is similar to Latin. This is not an insult!!! Why are you understand like that? Excuese me! [/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]"Over the last 100 years, thousands of people have looked at the Voynich MS. A number of these people are very knowledgeable about historical documents from all over the world. " I know. All af them was very important persons and venerable researcher. Already at the beginning ı thought that "it these person couldn't solve, there is something misleading us." Because of their important! Especially you! I learned Voynich from you. Maybe I can say something to another people, but how can ı say to you these? Hey! You are Zene Zandbergen! Every year there are houndreds researcher and academic person learned VMS history from you... How can ı say to you "close mind!"[/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I think you misunderstood me. Or I couldn't telling you myself! I deleted the video from youtube. I will read again! And I will delete the parts which was disturbed you. I didn't want to hurt anyone!!![/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]But I'm not only writing in here and not only writing in English. Until today generaly it was in Turkish. At that proces I saw; when I say it can be in Mayan, everytime it wasn't accepted. Because of the general thinking. I said it for this. Of course [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]ı will present my evidence first. That is not only things that in the video. It is a process! Normaly you will critism! Maybe ı can doing error, false! I have got a theory, some evidences, determitations, readings, grammer properties...etc. I'm going to see the true with you. It is a naturel process. But it is not a race or quarrel! I'm not looking this process like that. Don't understand me wrong! Again if I did mistake, and if I broke your heart, sorry... We were started very very bad! But after meet me, you will se, I'm not that type of guy. Good evening...[/font][/font][/font]
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(26-08-2019, 08:32 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.One thing is a pity.
You say that you expect that people are probably not ready to accept it.
In the video, you also say that this is because perhaps they don't have an open mind.
...
I had the same reaction as René. Most of the ideas that are in the video are on my list of possibilities for interpreting the VMS. I have a LONG LONG LONG list of possibilities for each part of the manuscript and it takes a great deal of time (and confirmatory research) to write them up, so I haven't even written up 1% of it yet.
I don't think Voynich researchers are as closed-minded as people seem to think.
The hard part is not having the ideas... the hard part is proving them. That takes time, effort, and dedication.
I'm grateful to Rene. Because of his blog. He wrote me something. And I apologized to him. And same time the people who understood me wrong. Or Maybe I sad them... But I didn't request this. And ı told this long long... No problem! If ı do a mistake, ı apologize. Because apogolize is virtue. I could say "this is my opinion" or "I think like this"... But I didn't! Because ı felt, ı brook your heart and I apologized for this.
Then, you wrote again, "I had the same reaction as René" "[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I don't think Voynich researchers are as closed-minded as people seem to think."... Not problem again. I can excuse from you, if you understand me wrong. Because ı didn't say this! I didn't say they are "[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]closed-minded." I said they are thinking about VMS " it iss a European book". Because VMS misleading us, as all of us. Because of this, they will accept hard." And ı said it is normal! What is the problem?[/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]But upset me that last sentences; "[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]The hard part is not having the ideas... the hard part is proving them. That takes time, effort, and dedication." Whay are you insuling me? Did you ask me my [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]evidences? Or what are you think about me? One morning ı woke up, and wrote a book? Why are you sure that I wasn't gave effort, or time? [/font][/font][/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]For wanting to be kind, I didn't show up that "I solved the Vms, it finished...etc." You know every six month someone show up like that. If ı did it, be sure my videos on youtube is being watched one million. I didn't call the news channel, or ı didn't run the television in my country. Everytime ı worked to be reasonable. I said that "I have a theory". Be sure, I'm reading alot of word or page, more than that people. But ı requested that we will be continiue with. You say something, ı say something... you know. [/font][/font][/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Maybe ı did a mistake! But saying "it will be accepted very hard" is not a mistake! It is a reality. But if ı said "you are closed mind" it was be a big mistake. But i didn't! Maybe my it sourcing from my English... [/font][/font][/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]But our basic subject is not this. Our sublect should have been the determinations on video. Is it possible or impossible? We must be speaking on it! After opening this discussion, ı requested to link between next subjects. Step, step, step... Because ı thuought that it can not accept easily! But the process is coming a very different area. Now ı can say something to you; then you say me... What happen at the end? Why? I'm not meeting you? Why do ı [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]quarrel with you? What is this meaning? Who win?... Nobody![/font][/font][/font][/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Again again again... I'm apogolizing from you who understand me wrong! Excuse me. I deleted the video for this time! I will change it. And ı deleted the writing in the form which is about it. Have a nice day my friend. I'm not angry with you. Please don't angry with me. Only I [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]spoke sincerely. I wont write again. Maybe one day we will meeting. (especialy I'm going to try for Rene) Why not? Best regards...[/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font]
Please don't worry too much. I am used to people telling me that I don't have an open mind, when I don't believe their theories.
However, my suggestion to you would be not to put that at the very beginning.
Even before you present your work, you are already putting yourself in a defensive position.
That isn't necessary.
It also tells the reader in advance that he is going to read something that he will probably find unlikely.
(27-08-2019, 01:09 AM)raven Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I said they are thinking about VMS " it iss a European book". Because VMS misleading us, as all of us. Because of this, they will accept hard." And ı said it is normal! What is the problem?[/font][/font]
...
I've never said it was a European book. I've said some of the exemplars for the zodiac figures come from European sources. I can prove that with examples. That does not mean the person who created the book is European. I spent a lot of time studying cultures, alphabets, and plants from the southern Mediterranean (north African coast).
Janick and Tucker don't think it is a European book. They think it's North American.
D.N. O'Donovan has named a lot of different possible origins for the iconography and some of them were not European.
Numerous people have suggested Persia, Eastern Europe, Russia, sometimes even India.
So, no it's not true that everyone thinks it is European. It might be, but it might not. It is possible for some things to be copied from European sources (like the zodiac figures) even if the designer came from somewhere else.
An argument for Central Europe are the swallowtail merlons of the castle (Rosette page). Of course it is also possible that the authors have only seen them while traveling. So they could have come from another part of the world.
Many people are probably going to take an interest in the VMS due to videos like this. But telling your side of the story in an honest and engaging way is usually better than generalizing about what other people think.
We don't all think the same things and we don't all assume it's a European manuscript. Where the manuscript was created and where the person who created it came from might be two entirely different things.
The latest video was very interesting. I think, you could be right with your theory, that the star constellations are shown in the balneological section. If you're right, it is also possible, that the plant drawings have direct connections to the stars.
Two of the first three plants are maybe Kentaurea and Nymphoides indica. You have mentioned Polaris and the Southern Cross as the sources of the two constellation rivers. The Kentaur is following your theory the first constellation on the Southern sky. It is directly connected with the Kentaurea, which Prof. Bax identified in his searching. Cepheus, which according to the VMS is connected with Nymphoides is the second constellation on the Northern Sky.
But you're maybe wrong with the tropical VMS origin. During the Roman Empire, the Southern Cross was also visible from southern Spain and Crete for example. So it could even fit my theory, but not only that. As far as I could say, the water-gives-life-mythology seems to have some parallels with the story of the Celtic goddess Sirona. And look to Lascaux. Astronomy was also a very known field of Science even by the descendants of the Celts and the Pre-Indo-Europeans.
It wasn't Bax who identified Centaurea.
That was one of the generally accepted IDs at the time (almost as well accepted as Viola). Even without looking at the text, the ID of Centaurea is less controversial than others. It looks like Centaurea jacea (brown knapweed).
Plus, the VMS label very nearly says Centaurea in Latin. In fact, in Latin, it is closer than it is in Arabic, and it was Arabic (or a similar Middle Eastern language) that Bax was suggesting was the underlying language.
I would not be surprised if some of the plants turned out to be Mediterranean plants (Ricinis, for example, is not tolerant of cold weather and prefers warmer climates), but I would be extremely surprised if they were tropical. There's no sign that they are tropical. All the more naturalistic ones are temperate-zone plants, not tropical plants, and even the odder ones do not have the usual botanical earmarks of tropical plants.
The "water lily" doesn't have to be Nymphoides indica, there is also a European Nymphoides and there is frogbit, which is very similar. If it is one of the Vallarsia, Menyanthes species (which is what it looks like), then it is circumboreal and can't really be pinned down to any particular continent without corroborating information from the text or other plants around it.