14-08-2019, 10:52 AM
14-08-2019, 11:16 AM
Thinking about the Passion a bit more generally, it looks a bit like the hill Jesus is depicted praying on during the "Agony in the Garden" scenes in some medieval art - although tbh it looks a bit like a small hill in non-liturgical medieval art too!
14-08-2019, 11:31 AM
(14-08-2019, 11:16 AM)arca_libraria Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thinking about the Passion a bit more generally, it looks a bit like the hill Jesus is depicted praying on during the "Agony in the Garden" scenes in some medieval art - although tbh it looks a bit like a small hill in non-liturgical medieval art too!
Winner!
At the foot of this Mount of Olives lies the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., the urban garden where Jesus was arrested.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: "So Judas came to the garden, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and the Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons."
(These "torches, lanterns and weapons" were variably included in the Arma).
Now, look at the rest of the plant.
[attachment=3154]
15-08-2019, 09:53 PM
Edit: moved this here from the other thread about You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Anyway, back to possible symbolic interpretations.
Arma Christi can in fact contain crowned figures or mitres.
See here top left for a mitre: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
There are many other examples.
For the shape in the roots, I have two possible lines of investigation. Both can be illustrated by this image from the Morgan: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
First focus on the shield below. There are some of the usual heads put together. The Morgan describes them like this:
So our crown belongs to Pilate, Caiphas or Herod. In the gospel of Luke, Pilate first handed Jesus over to Herod, who sent him back to Pilate.
Caiaphas was "the Jewish high priest who, according to the gospels, organized a plot to kill Jesus. He famously presided over the Sanhedrin trial of Jesus."
[attachment=3171]
That's one line. The second is a cloth object hanging over a spear, which together may somewhat resemble our root (see pink arrow). But I don't know what this object is, and the Morgan doesn't either.
If we find out what this object is and can link it to either of these crowned figures, then we may be a step closer.
Anyway, back to possible symbolic interpretations.
Arma Christi can in fact contain crowned figures or mitres.
See here top left for a mitre: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
There are many other examples.
For the shape in the roots, I have two possible lines of investigation. Both can be illustrated by this image from the Morgan: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
First focus on the shield below. There are some of the usual heads put together. The Morgan describes them like this:
Quote:In each of four sections created by cross is head, including that of Pilate, Caiphas , or Herod Antipas (?), either two crowned or one wearing miter or hat with gold band; Judas with sack hanging around neck, and man, mouth open.
So our crown belongs to Pilate, Caiphas or Herod. In the gospel of Luke, Pilate first handed Jesus over to Herod, who sent him back to Pilate.
Caiaphas was "the Jewish high priest who, according to the gospels, organized a plot to kill Jesus. He famously presided over the Sanhedrin trial of Jesus."
[attachment=3171]
That's one line. The second is a cloth object hanging over a spear, which together may somewhat resemble our root (see pink arrow). But I don't know what this object is, and the Morgan doesn't either.
If we find out what this object is and can link it to either of these crowned figures, then we may be a step closer.
15-08-2019, 10:28 PM
(15-08-2019, 09:53 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Edit: moved this here from the other thread about You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Anyway, back to possible symbolic interpretations.
Arma Christi can in fact contain crowned figures or mitres.
See here top left for a mitre: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
There are many other examples.
...
Take a look what the mitre is paired with on the right-hand side in the St. Andrews example.... a blindfold. So we know what they represent. But I am not certain a crown means the same thing in every Arma Christi image. There are different illustrative traditions, as there are with crucifixion images that don't include all the Arma Christi implements.
15-08-2019, 10:42 PM
(15-08-2019, 10:28 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.And look what the mitre is paired with on the right-hand side.... a blindfold. So now we know exactly what they represent.
Aah it's the blindfold, of course! I kept thinking about the various clothes and shrouds.
(My knowledge of these things is limited to whatever I can remember from (catholic) primary school
So a quick googling session later, I know that Jesus was blindfolded by the soldiers who bullied him. This was during the chapter of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., when he appeared before Caiaphas.
They were frequently depicted like this:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
[attachment=3172]
Not the best explanation though, I wouldn't add this to the list.
15-08-2019, 11:10 PM
Koen, all this is very new to me, I'm scrambling to understand the Christian iconography, so I'm bound to make mistakes, but I just found another connection between Synagoga as the personification of the Jewish religion and the blindfold...
The blindfold was said to have been put on Christ by the Jews (not by the Romans), so it doubles as a metaphor for the events related to the debasement and crucifixion, and at the same time (or perhaps alternately in some depictions) the "blindness" to accept the new religion. Which means it's iconographically complex and there might be subtle differences in what was meant.
I'm confused with what I've been reading. The biblical passage indicates it was those who mocked him, beat him, or spit on him who blindfolded him. Others say it was a Jew. I don't know what to trust because many people confused the Romans with the Jews in the crucifixion stories. Let me find the original passages in the Bible....
It's a bit like the problem of the people on either side of the crucifix. Sometimes it's the people who saw him after the crucifixion (e.g., the women), sometimes it's the predecessors (the women in the Jesse tree), sometimes it's Mary and St. John.
But, the fact that the crown and the blindfold are paired might be the tip-off as to which one it is (I'm not 100% sure).
The blindfold was said to have been put on Christ by the Jews (not by the Romans), so it doubles as a metaphor for the events related to the debasement and crucifixion, and at the same time (or perhaps alternately in some depictions) the "blindness" to accept the new religion. Which means it's iconographically complex and there might be subtle differences in what was meant.
I'm confused with what I've been reading. The biblical passage indicates it was those who mocked him, beat him, or spit on him who blindfolded him. Others say it was a Jew. I don't know what to trust because many people confused the Romans with the Jews in the crucifixion stories. Let me find the original passages in the Bible....
It's a bit like the problem of the people on either side of the crucifix. Sometimes it's the people who saw him after the crucifixion (e.g., the women), sometimes it's the predecessors (the women in the Jesse tree), sometimes it's Mary and St. John.
But, the fact that the crown and the blindfold are paired might be the tip-off as to which one it is (I'm not 100% sure).
15-08-2019, 11:17 PM
I still find this one hard to call too. But the fact that one clear crown "rules" over the scene might be a good indication. And according to David, we're looking at a religious crown, which is all the more interesting.
In that case, the leaves would almost have to represent the flurry of slapping hands we find in the blindfold scenes... still not too sure.
About who did it: The blindfolding happened during his trial under Jewish authorities.
In that case, the leaves would almost have to represent the flurry of slapping hands we find in the blindfold scenes... still not too sure.
About who did it: The blindfolding happened during his trial under Jewish authorities.
15-08-2019, 11:21 PM
Okay, there are two accounts of the blindfold, one in the Gospel of Mark and the other in Luke...
Mark 14:65 Then some began to spit at him; they blindfolded him, struck him with their fists, and said, “Prophesy!” And the guards took him and beat him.
Luke 22:64 They blindfolded him and demanded, “Prophesy! Who hit you?”
Some context from Mark:
Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”
62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
63 The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64 “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”
They all condemned him as worthy of death. 65 Then some began to spit at him; they blindfolded him, struck him with their fists, and said, “Prophesy!” And the guards took him and beat him.
So it's a vague "They" in Mark and almost sounds like a reference to the "jury" ("all" can still mean a subset), and not necessarily the guards, which are mentioned after. It says "some began to spit at him", but it's really not clear if it was the spitters, or the next group that they are talking about, that blindfolded him. They didn't use commas in those days, which is why it is incredibly difficult to know where one thought or section ends and another begins.
Not enough info to make a determination, so it all depends on who's doing the interpretation of the Bible passage (and how the illustrator further interprets that).
Some context from Luke:
63 The men who were guarding Jesus began mocking and beating him. 64 They blindfolded him and demanded, “Prophesy! Who hit you?” 65 And they said many other insulting things to him.
And it's more explicitly the guards, in Luke.
It doesn't strike me as a reference to the Jews so I'm wondering if this idea that Jews blindfolded him is the usual confusion between Romans and Jews as though they were all the same.
Mark 14:65 Then some began to spit at him; they blindfolded him, struck him with their fists, and said, “Prophesy!” And the guards took him and beat him.
Luke 22:64 They blindfolded him and demanded, “Prophesy! Who hit you?”
Some context from Mark:
Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”
62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
63 The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64 “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”
They all condemned him as worthy of death. 65 Then some began to spit at him; they blindfolded him, struck him with their fists, and said, “Prophesy!” And the guards took him and beat him.
So it's a vague "They" in Mark and almost sounds like a reference to the "jury" ("all" can still mean a subset), and not necessarily the guards, which are mentioned after. It says "some began to spit at him", but it's really not clear if it was the spitters, or the next group that they are talking about, that blindfolded him. They didn't use commas in those days, which is why it is incredibly difficult to know where one thought or section ends and another begins.
Not enough info to make a determination, so it all depends on who's doing the interpretation of the Bible passage (and how the illustrator further interprets that).
Some context from Luke:
63 The men who were guarding Jesus began mocking and beating him. 64 They blindfolded him and demanded, “Prophesy! Who hit you?” 65 And they said many other insulting things to him.
And it's more explicitly the guards, in Luke.
It doesn't strike me as a reference to the Jews so I'm wondering if this idea that Jews blindfolded him is the usual confusion between Romans and Jews as though they were all the same.
15-08-2019, 11:39 PM