The Voynich Ninja

I thought the images of church-pew Arma Christis that VViews posted were interesting because everyone who attended saw them on a regular basis.

Apparently they had this tradition in Germany, as well. Here is one on the back of a church pew from Kiedrich (late 15th century):



Credit: Andreas Praefcke, Wikipedia &Released7 under CC by 3.0

It may be completely coincidental, but I couldn't help noticing this:

[attachment=3197]

More and more I suspect that many of the spewy things coming out of objects are spiritual emanations. I've considered this for a long time, and some of them look to me to be more geological or meteorological, but lately it seems even more likely that at least some of them might be "spiritual" forces rather than natural forces.

Quote:I don't believe it myself, but I hoped that it would start people to think.

(19-08-2019, 07:57 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I realized you were just trolling, Rene, don't worry.

Ah, it didn't work...

(19-08-2019, 08:36 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So the plant that is in Arma Christi illustrations is identified by historians as hyssop.

Thanks JKP, now I know what to put in my tea tomorrow.

Is there any 15th century illustration that looks like it instead of some generic herb?
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(19-08-2019, 10:15 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Ah, it didn't work...

I think your trick with the upside down flowers does not do justice to some of the more striking matches we've discussed so far.

In the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. about You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. I made a mistake at first, comparing the blue to the sky too readily. I then realized it must be water since some of the VM patterns have a slant to them as well. Like the lines under the pangolin, they are more like waves than the ones under the nymphs on the same page. This made the image click completely, and it's full of references to the same thing: how water and blood came forth from the side wound and were caught in the chalice. This explains the cup shape, golden color, mandorla shape of the upper part, wave shape and color of the petioles, red and blue lines running towards the cup.

I would think the difference between this and "look these flowers are upside down" is obvious, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

Sure, about half of the matches in the task thread are weak proposals. It's intentionally broad. But I'm still aiming for some degree of likelihood. Take the nails, earlier in this thread I was complaining that they are important but I just couldn't find them. Dozens of the leaves are pointy, but non of them appeared manipulated into looking like nails.

But they are there, I just couldn't find them because I had been ignoring the folios near the end of the MS. Look at these flowers: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

It's not just that they kinda look like nails. These *are* perfect renditions of medieval nails, arranged like a cross no less. They've even got the rugged top surface. 

I understand some of what we're doing looks like superficial matching on expected symbolism. And certainly some of it is, and some of the things I've proposed in this context are certainly wrong and worthy of mockery. But there's a considerable core set of pages that are not so easily dismissed. 

Maybe they can be reconstructed as having once formed one quire, maybe they don't. Maybe the plants are sorted alphabetically and the AC folios are spread throughout. Even if the latter is the case, recognizing how the individual plant drawings were constructed and manipulated would still be a valuable insight.

(19-08-2019, 10:33 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(19-08-2019, 08:36 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So the plant that is in Arma Christi illustrations is identified by historians as hyssop.

Thanks JKP, now I know what to put in my tea tomorrow.

Is there any 15th century illustration that looks like it instead of some generic herb?
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Do you mean the bundle of branches? I think those are birch sticks, commonly used by one or both of the torturers. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

The hyssop was supposedly used to pass the sour wine to the mouth of Jesus, but there are numerous plants in various versions of the Arma Christi, and sometimes each one sits in its own little space not quite related to the others, so I don't know which ones specifically are hyssop (and since it may not actually be hyssop, it may not look like anything we recognize).

It's not very clear what the "tree" shape with the two big red blobs is in the top-left of the carved German pew.

(19-08-2019, 09:34 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Here is one on the back of a church pew from Kiedrich (late 15th century):

They really made a mess of the top two coins. They've gone all one dimensional.

Beautiful pew JKP, it looks so well maintained. Extensive collection of items on it as well.

I'm on vacation for the next couple of days. Plenty of idle moments to check on the forum once in a while, but there's not even wifi so I'll limit myself to what I know from memory

- Those red plant parts, I seem to recall there's a VM plant that has something similar in blue?

- between the pillar and the pincers there's something like a hand drill. I'm certain there's a VM plant with a root in this shape. This is a simple shape, just splayed sticks, so more may be required to confirm this. I don't know what the story is behind this drill. If one exists, this may help. I've also seen this drill in other AC so it's certainly traditional in some parts.

- all the way to the right there's the reed they gave Jesus as a mock staff. Here it has a shepherd's crook. I think there are two (or just one?) plants with this shape.

(17-08-2019, 12:27 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ...
Some which I have not (yet) found are:

- nails (usually three, exceptionally four)

- hammer (often with a "forked" end)

- the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - this might be tricky since it should include writing. Could be a wooden board or a scroll.



Others are tricky because there are a few options. I'm not sure which plant could be the ladder (which is almost always included). The sponge on a stick is also important but its shape is too similar to that of actual plants, which are also generally stuff on sticks. There are about three or four plants that stand out to me, but I don't know which is the most likely candidate.

Is there a faded/sketched ladder here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ?

I don't think it's an enormously strong candidate as the other (possible) IDs have been based on silhouettes or more firmly drawn details, but that red isn't transfer from 43v, or show-through from 44v and it's definitely a bit odd!