The Voynich Ninja

Full Version: Tim King's et al. translation
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Hi, everyone,

I've been lurking on this site for years, but Marco's invitation above inspired me to register at last. I've corresponded with some of you over the years, and it's nice to meet the rest of you.

Before I chime in on The Latest, here's a little bit of background on me and my relationship with the VMS. I am a medieval paleographer and codicologist with a PhD from Yale in Medieval Studies. I've catalogued hundreds of pre-1600 European manuscripts in US collections over the last thirty years. I am NOT a linguist and am not actively working to "solve" the VMS. But I have been reading and critiquing proposed solutions for several decades, first as the Assistant to the Curator of Pre-1600 Manuscripts at the Beinecke from 1990-1993, where I was in charge of Voynich correspondence (among other duties). I have seen and handled the manuscript several times over the years, including the day before yesterday (I'm currently in New Haven teaching a class at the Beinecke on digital imagery, metadata, and medieval manuscripts). For more about my work, check out my blog (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) or follow me on Twitter (@LisaFDavis). In my day job, I am the Executive Director of the Medieval Academy of America (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), the largest organization in the world dedicated to supporting the study of the Middle Ages.

My current VMS research has to do with determining particular features that distinguish different hands in the VMS, using the methods and methodologies of classical paleography. I will have two articles coming out next year on the subject, one in a journal called Manuscript Studies, and the other in a collection of essays on Digital Paleography. I hope that this work will help linguists refine the dialectal distinctions uncovered by Currier et al. 

Now that that's out of the way, I do have some thoughts about The Latest, although I think my concerns have already been clearly laid out by others (JKP in particular) above. You don't have to read very far to see that this is ground that has already been well-trodden. We've all seen The Tironian Theory and the Vulgar Latin Theory before. When you dig down to the first principles, as with Cheshire and other recent proposals, it just doesn't hold water. Bax' work is not a strong foundation on which to build (mixing metaphors, I know).

We know a lot about this manuscript already - its history (well, most of it), its structure, its linguistic anomalies, its collaborative origins, its materiality. Like all of us, I am still waiting for a proposal that has solid foundations and is evidence-based, logical, reproducible, and that results in a complete legible text that makes sense and co-ordinates with the illustrations and charts. It's out there somewhere.

- Lisa
Hi LisaFaginDavis and welcome to the forum!
Wonderful news about your upcoming Voynich articles, I am (and I'm sure many here are) really looking forward to them!
Welcome, Lisa.

I'm sure your many responsibilities must keep you busy, so it's appreciated that you are offering your opinions.
P.S., I apologize for all the typos in Post #19. I was literally under the time-gun and unable to correct them. Our power company had to replace a pole down the street and I posted in haste and shut down the computer only 10 seconds before they shut off the power for 4 hours.
(12-07-2019, 04:00 AM)Tim King Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(11-07-2019, 12:14 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(11-07-2019, 01:41 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Wow, I'm already concerned after reading the second sentence...

"Based upon our findings, the language of the Voynich Manuscript is a Vulgar Latin dialect, likely affected by a contemporary Italian dialect."

If the VMS was created c. early 15th century, how could the text be affected by a contemporary Italian dialect? They were still speaking medieval Italian. Even 17th-century Italian is different from modern Italian, and 15th-century Italian is quite a bit different.

I read that as Italian contemporary to the vms, not modern Italian.

Hey Linda, this is Tim.  The term "contemporary" means contemporary to the Vulgar Latin of the manuscript, not contemporary to now.

Hi Tim, welcome to the forum. Glad to know i got that right. I found your paper interesting, especially in terms of the Italian focus, and on the thermal bath ideas, since I have found similar indications in the imagery, but I fear there is much more work to do. I hope you will take any criticisms you will receive here as foundations upon which to continue your work.
(12-07-2019, 01:28 PM)LisaFaginDavis Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi, everyone,
...
Like all of us, I am still waiting for a proposal that has solid foundations and is evidence-based, logical, reproducible, and that results in a complete legible text that makes sense and co-ordinates with the illustrations and charts. It's out there somewhere.

- Lisa

Hi Lisa, welcome to the forum, and thank you for the links and your optimistic encouragement toward future attempts at translation of the text.
There should be a manual "Things to consider before making a Voynich Theory". Compulsory reading. It would prevent a lot of unnecessary work on yet another "unique" iteration of the same problematic system, and perhaps steer efforts towards more useful paths.
(13-07-2019, 01:22 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There should be a manual "Things to consider before making a Voynich Theory". Compulsory reading. It would prevent a lot of unnecessary work on yet another "unique" iteration of the same problematic system, and perhaps steer efforts towards more useful paths.

There is one: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Were it not written by Rene in first person, I would have published it on the forum in the FAQ section!
I think the biggest chance to solve the Voynich MS is having a multiprofessional team. One-sided considerations would be excluded from the outset. In my opinion, that is the reason why very often the same mistakes are made. No one has such a universal background that he / she can cover all aspects alone or in a small, non-heterogeneous, group.
I'd say the biggest problem is that of approach/methodology. One can have a brilliant research team, but if that one does not know what to do and how, it will very quickly end in what-ifs and why-nots quite as the wide circle of individual researchers. Or, I'd say, its funding will deplete even sooner.
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