The Voynich Ninja

Indeed, and these are tricky questions.

The only thing one can do is to record, and to explain what were the rules for recording.
Such labels have been seen by some transcribers as one label, and by others as two.

In the zodiac section it is very clear that what we call labels can consist of more than one word.

(10-05-2019, 02:33 PM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi everyone,
here are some questions I can't make up my mind about.
What exactly is going on with the text layout at the bottom of f75v?
Here's the part I'm referring to:



A paragraph begins with a pretty standard big gallows and "Por shey okain chedy kol sheol olchedy"... but after the seventh word the line is broken off.

Hi Vviews,

There are 18 nymphs plus a central bodiless head in the lake, there are 18 labels plus a stand alone glyph followed by the same number of labels as nymphs past the head, if you consider everything under the 7 words to the left side of the page as labels. That seems too coincidental not to be analogous, no?

(10-05-2019, 04:35 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This was one of the most difficult pieces of text to judge, when I had to define the 'locus indicators' that I have used in my rendition of all transcription files in the IVTFF format.
Of course, historical transcribers made different assumptions about these cases as well.

First of all, I think it is useful to call a label only those individual words (or short texts) that are clearly near a drawing element. A label should be 'attached' to something. There are plenty of individual words that are not near anything identifiable.
So, there are (e.g.) zodiac labels, plant part labels, container labels, nymph labels, but also 'tube' labels.
All these are indicated in the transcription files.
In the bottom part of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. there are three words that might just be nymph labels, but indeed one cannot be sure.

Another tricky case was the top of f34r, where the lines don't match up.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. also has something interesting going on in the top lines, right margin.

There really are not a lot of labels in the Voynich, there mainly little quirps of information. Loved your post as I have not tried to translate the bath pages much, so I had to look at the letter anomaly on page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. that you were talking about and found something quite interesting. The letters are an after thought or warning, to stay away from the poppy seed being discussed for healing relief.  Letters on the side translate to "plunder not in" You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. I only did the first 5 lines on the right side of the illustration.

(10-05-2019, 09:02 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Vviews,

There are 18 nymphs plus a central bodiless head in the lake, there are 18 labels plus a stand alone glyph followed by the same number of labels as nymphs past the head, if you consider everything under the 7 words to the left side of the page as labels. That seems too coincidental not to be analogous, no?

Hi Linda,
I'm not discarding the possibilty that they could be labels. This however is far from solving all the problems here: why the line break after the seven words? 
My main concern is understanding the criteria which we base counts on, as this affects statistics: as I explained the site only counts some of them as labels... why not all of them? What is the criteria?
As Nablator and ReneZ remarked, eliminating two-word labels is an odd choice, especially when there are plenty of them in the Astro/Cosmo section.
ReneZ mentioned that something unusual seems to be going on at the top right of 75v, and indeed, this is another problem: the vertical row of glyphs is counted as five distinct one-character labels. I have a problem understanding this, as it seems to go against the idea that labels should be "clearly near a drawing element".

As a side note, I think the notion that there are 18 nymphs + 1 head sounds to me like skewing things to match the number of labels... there are 19 nymphs in the pool... 
...unless you're suggesting that those nymphs are taking a horrific bath with a disembodied head? Spa rating: 0 stars.

I just meant to highlight the lack of body, similar to the single glyph label , they are in similar places within the 19 labels if the single glyph is one. Lots of ifs so i was just directing eyes to what i meant to reference, however her lack of second arm and body may mean something in terms of poses etc.

My guess as to the line break is that the sentence was complete, and then thenarrative restarts to the right of the drawing. It seems likely to me that the 7 word sentence and the paragraph it belongs to is still discussing the top drawing, and the bottom one is referred to by the paragraph to its right only.

I find other issues with Voynichese.com transcriptions, it would be more useful with a corrected or updated version, i agree. 

In terms of the labels themselves, i see some similarities with others within the quire, i think on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. there is ololol as somewhere on the northern edge of a drawing, and here is olol near the top center as well

I havent looked closely at the labels on this page yet, will do shortly and see if i can offer further observations that could be of help

(10-05-2019, 02:33 PM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi everyone,
here are some questions I can't make up my mind about.
What exactly is going on with the text layout at the bottom of f75v?
Here's the part I'm referring to:



A paragraph begins with a pretty standard big gallows and "Por shey okain chedy kol sheol olchedy"... but after the seventh word the line is broken off.
Where does the text continue? To the right of the pool (kolkedy...) or to the left?
If to the left, which words are the continuation of that line, and which ones are labels?
What about the words in the three short lines in the bottom left corner:
okedy qeky tedar oly
solchedy solkedy
qokeedy qokol olkol
Are these considered as a standalone mini paragraph or are they the beginning of three lines of text that continue to the right of the pool?

Also, Voynichese.com's identification of some of the words to the left of the pool here as labels, but not all, is confusing.
Why are otal, opal, okeey and lol not counted as labels, when olol, to my eyes not different, is counted as  a label?
How did Voynichese.com determine which ones of these words are labels or not?



There are probably no definitive answers, but I'm interested in hearing what you guys think about these questions.

Based on the system I have been using, the words on the bottom are: Burst forth poppy seed, firepot poppy seed, firepot healing relief, strength poppy seed, firepot poppy seed to soothe anger search for substance to be heated, plunder my own poppy seed, plunder forever poppy seed, hitherto to summon of hitherto then to dream/sleep. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. The "c8g" (sorry i do not use Eva) word translates to poppy seed and is used over 18 times on page 34r (in translation now). elsewhere on this thread i posted the first 5 lines used in the upper right side.

Sorry to take a step away from the labels, but I believe that on this page the artist drew a simplified bath from page 78v.[attachment=2929]

(11-05-2019, 08:05 AM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(10-05-2019, 09:02 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Vviews,

There are 18 nymphs plus a central bodiless head in the lake, there are 18 labels plus a stand alone glyph followed by the same number of labels as nymphs past the head, if you consider everything under the 7 words to the left side of the page as labels. That seems too coincidental not to be analogous, no?

As a side note, I think the notion that there are 18 nymphs + 1 head sounds to me like skewing things to match the number of labels... there are 19 nymphs in the pool... 
...unless you're suggesting that those nymphs are taking a horrific bath with a disembodied head? Spa rating: 0 stars.

Interesting, i went to go look at the place i think corresponds to the imagery,  Lake Sevan, and they have a legend about a girl who forgot to roll a boulder back over the spring and flooded everything. Her face is thought to be seen in this island.



So, due to manmade drainage, she now looks like this



In real life this is located at the northwestern part of the lake, but to put her at the center makes a bit of sense to me. Especially if you look at the lake from the perspective of the town Sevan, ie looking southeast, then that is exactly where she is, and the nymph with her hand on the tube is Sevan, and the river is the only one that drains the lake, the Hrezdan. Actually it just trickles, most of the water in the lake evaporates, rather than outflows.

Anyway i thought that was interesting and it also made me notice the nymph above her is mainly underwater too. And the left side of the lake is coloured a different blue, that matches the shape of the real thing quite well. 
Perhaps the second half of the lake is from a north up perspective.

As for that underwater nymph, it does appear there is more submerged area of the same point as the island. 


If any of this holds water (ha, unintended) then perhaps the labels refer to the surrounding geography.

I still have to take that closer look at those labels, perhaps it helps explain the correct orientations.