The Voynich Ninja

(04-03-2019, 02:24 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.LOL!

Linda, I was just going to post a link to the Michael of Rhodes example, and then I decided to read the thread before posting and there it is.  

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 Oh, and I keep forgetting to post that Matthew Paris is significant in the 13th century because it includes not only the itinerary, maps, and winds, but also numeric tables (for calculating Easter) and calendars. In other words, like a "handbook" for travel

Michael of Rhodes had a Table of Solomon which gave him the new moon for almost a hundred years worth and also did the Easter thing. Also sun and moon tables but he copied them incorrectly. Also a zodiac man, you were not to bloodlet when the moon tides affected the blood, so there is medical too. Also shipbuilding info, and notes on all his excursions. I added a link to that post to the website, i like it because it is contemporary to the time of our manuscript and gives glimpses into how people thought at the time.

The sun and moon tables look like the crisscross table in the catalan atlas, ill bet its the original and he got it third or fourth hand, which is why the mistakes.


The one at the bottom, zodiac names criss crossed.

Better pic/version



Too funny re Matthew Paris, i was just looking at one of his itineraries and he draws some cities like circular forts as well. Green salt water and blue tubes for rivers.

(04-03-2019, 03:37 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Too funny re Matthew Paris, i was just looking at one of his itineraries and he draws some cities like circular forts as well. Green salt water and blue tubes for rivers.

Yes! and Yes about the colors too.

And notice how the big waves are drawn in the top-left picture. That is how I usually interpret the "big waves" in the top-right rotum on the VMS "map". It looks to me like that is the side that probably faces the rougher water of the coastline (or major river).

Hi Linda,
this page is full of references, it's a census of pre-16th Century portolan charts:
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Also, one 15thC text I find interesting (and which may perhaps be relevant to your hypothesis about the Q13 illustrations) is the way that coastlines and rivers are integrated into the marginal space in  various editions of Dati's Sfera.

Below, pages from the Boston Public Library's MS f Med. 125 (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.):



Another version from Harvard's Houghton Library MS Typ 155:


Printed version of Dati's Sfera from Library of Congress, PQ4621.D17 S4 1475

There's a lot to like about VViews Dati link:

Slow deliberate way of writing the text.
Embellished capitals.
Text around the edges of the circles.
Similar collection of subject matter.
The little details on the castles.
Many map shapes similar to the VMS shapes (both pools and map).

The way this is put together reminds me of Rotum 7 (bottom-left):

[attachment=2703]

(04-03-2019, 03:35 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There's a lot to like about VViews Dati link:

Slow deliberate way of writing the text.
Embellished capitals.
Text around the edges of the circles.
Similar collection of subject matter.
The little details on the castles.
Many map shapes similar to the VMS shapes (both pools and map).

The way this is put together reminds me of Rotum 7 (bottom-left):

Not only that,  i see zodiac, various stars, earth, a ship, (nautical knowledge?), he commented on Aristotle, and he was also at the Councils of Constance and Pisa. 

His coat of arms shows a hat similar to one in the zodiac section, may be some connection there too.



Here is another copy

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And another which links to others. This one is said to definitely include a portolano.

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(04-03-2019, 02:54 PM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Also, one 15thC text I find interesting (and which may perhaps be relevant to your hypothesis about the Q13 illustrations) is the way that coastlines and rivers are integrated into the marginal space in  various editions of Dati's Sfera.

Below, pages from the Boston Public Library's MS f Med. 125 (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.):



Another version from Harvard's Houghton Library MS Typ 155:


Printed version of Dati's Sfera from Library of Congress, PQ4621.D17 S4 1475

Thanks! That last one has actual portolan chart type maps following that image. Interesting to compare them.

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Other intriguing tidbits in there too. One of them looks to me like the mountains of the moon and the text seems to indicate something about paradise and first humans??? It struck me because it draws parallel rivers to round lakes, and that is what i was saying about the crossed eyeball figures in the vms, i think it means parallel rivers that cross and share water flow...

Anyone know where a translation of the poem might be found?

Obviously I'm being flippant here, but is this Remainer Britain?


On a different note, I'd point out that a portolan map usually has rhumb lines, and cannot be used without them. How would these supposed maps work without a precise navigational aid to link them to geographical reality?

(04-03-2019, 10:09 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Obviously I'm being flippant here, but is this Remainer Britain?


On a different note, I'd point out that a portolan map usually has rhumb lines, and cannot be used without them. How would these supposed maps work without a precise navigational aid to link them to geographical reality?

This would be something like an illustrated portolan, being the precursor to a portolan chart, or map with lines drawn from windroses. The type of thing they made the maps from, but instead of a poem it would be a list of places, wind directions, and distances. I think this is somewhat analogous to quire 13, which illustrates a tour similar to that shown here, which follows coast lines.

You cant actually follow the rhumblines on a portolan as the coordinates are drawn from local observations, and is not set to any projection, although they are still amazingly accurate. I feel the lines should be called windlines on a portolan, the confusion is in people having used the same term for two different things as time went by, but have since diverged. On a map with a projection, the rhumblines or loxodromes do set the course, they are a straightened depiction of a curve which represents the shortest distance between two points on a sphere. On a portolan it is just a straight line, but which works well enough for shorter distances.

My guess as to what is shown here is noahs ark on mount ararat, attached as it seems to the entire atlas mountain range. You can see the euphrates and tigris coming from the mountain, going to the persian gulf on the right. The red sea is below that, the river below that in the right corner would be the nile.

The boston public library one in the post above, that is drawn without colour, is similarly laid out, you can see where the red sea crossing is indicated in that one, and mount sinai is indicated with a box at the top, i think likely indicating the ark of the covenant.

Another example is University of Kansas, Kenneth Spencer Library Pryce MS P4 (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ).


This one also shares with the Voynich its transit via HP Kraus.

An interesting article about this exemplar, but also about the Sfera manuscripts and Dati in general, can be found on JSTOR:
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It answers Davidjackson's question:
the maps in the Dati Sfera books are described as "portolan style" although obviously not proper portolans. The text in this section of the book is described as "geographical poetry".
The author of the article believes that it was not intended to serve practical navigational purposes but had an "educational and didactic" purpose in teaching geography (aided by the use of vernacular rather than latin, the joint presentation of text and map and the easily memorizable stanza format of the text): Dati's Sfera is a schoolbook.