11-09-2018, 04:57 PM
11-09-2018, 05:00 PM
(11-09-2018, 04:57 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Armadilli is easily dismissed with scales instead of bands. Do we have an alternate ID for their sunflower?
I have a mostly finished blog on alternate IDs for the "sunflower". I'm only missing a couple of the pics.
I haven't looked at other alternate IDs (except for Sherwood's), so I don't know what else is out there. I'll try to finish mine this weekend, or sooner if I can.
11-09-2018, 05:48 PM
11-09-2018, 06:36 PM
(11-09-2018, 05:48 PM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Stolfi wrote up a pretty solid rebuttal of the sunflower hypothesis here:
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Yes, but Stolfi picked the wrong page. The Sunflower of O'Neill is on f93r.
12-09-2018, 02:43 AM
f93r looks more like a sunflower than the other one. I have quite a few thoughts about You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. that I need to post. I just need a couple of illustrations. Sometimes it takes me weeks to find the right one that shows a specific detail (one that I can reproduce without violating copyrights).
12-09-2018, 02:50 AM
My main issue is that you need to take a lot of liberties with the shape and morphology of the head for it to be a sunflower. Nobody un their right mind would draw a sunflower head like a triangle.
15-09-2018, 06:17 PM
Koen,
There's a basic problem in the way the botanical folios are approached by amateurs - including Stolfi although in writing a re-visiting of his work I found much to admire, and puzzled over why he is among the more intelligent writers generally ignored.
The problem is the assumption that realism is a default for considering imagery in the Vms. In fact it is a movement which arises quite late in medieval Europe though of course it occurs much earlier in the west (e.g. in Roman art from Pompeii). I have always found it most practical to first identify style to get an accurate idea of where and when a picture was first enunciated, and then to note what evidence it offers of subsequent alteration or evolution. The heads of the 'sunflowers' are a case in point: a well-known formalised motif - as I've already explained and illustrated at length. Not of medieval European origin that detail points, as does so much else, away from the region of central Europe to which many theories seem bound.
There's a basic problem in the way the botanical folios are approached by amateurs - including Stolfi although in writing a re-visiting of his work I found much to admire, and puzzled over why he is among the more intelligent writers generally ignored.
The problem is the assumption that realism is a default for considering imagery in the Vms. In fact it is a movement which arises quite late in medieval Europe though of course it occurs much earlier in the west (e.g. in Roman art from Pompeii). I have always found it most practical to first identify style to get an accurate idea of where and when a picture was first enunciated, and then to note what evidence it offers of subsequent alteration or evolution. The heads of the 'sunflowers' are a case in point: a well-known formalised motif - as I've already explained and illustrated at length. Not of medieval European origin that detail points, as does so much else, away from the region of central Europe to which many theories seem bound.
01-10-2018, 02:52 AM
(12-09-2018, 02:50 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.My main issue is that you need to take a lot of liberties with the shape and morphology of the head for it to be a sunflower. Nobody un their right mind would draw a sunflower head like a triangle.
In this pic, the point is facing in the other direction, but a seedhead can be somewhat triangular, depending on the angle:
[attachment=2412]
Photo credit: DepositPhotos.com
I've said a number of times that I think the VMS illustrator drew at least some of the plants from life (some of them possibly from dried samples). The "sunflower" drawing seems to reinforce this possibility.
01-10-2018, 05:55 AM
An additional complication is that the seed head us drawn with lines which appear to indicate fuzziness. This is more reminiscent of some of Sunflowers relatives like dadelion, or even some kinds of thistle. All of this ignoring the shape of the leaves like sunflower does.
01-10-2018, 06:26 AM
(11-09-2018, 04:57 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Armadilli is easily dismissed with scales instead of bands. Do we have an alternate ID for their sunflower?
Koen, I would not be so sure. Reluctant as I am to muddy these waters further, have you seen this depiction of a whale?
Diane makes the point well, below, that realism is not the default.
Harley 4751 England 2nd quarter 13th C.