Stellar, I hope you realize if you throw random words into Google translate that the software will do its best to make some grammatical sense of it even if there isn't any. In other words, it's not just translating words, it's making "best guesses" as to what you MIGHT mean, so just because parts of it SEEM to make sense doesn't mean the original text says anything.
(06-05-2017, 05:00 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Stellar, I hope you realize if you throw random words into Google translate that the software will do its best to make some grammatical sense of it even if there isn't any. In other words, it's not just translating words, it's making "best guesses" as to what you MIGHT mean, so just because parts of it SEEM to make sense doesn't mean the original text says anything.
Not using google translate for this experiment.
And your wrong not just part of it makes sense but all of it!
(05-05-2017, 01:43 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Tom, what you created looks very plausible. Perhaps you could expand the possibilities for the ring a bit, let's say to 16 letters each?
Over and autum.
David sorry, I should have explained more why I can't change the cipher to a 1-1 basis, but I'm not sure if your implying this and I know I asked for help and I should have not been so vague on my answer. If I line up every glyph around the ring with not many glyph's representing a letter? Does that new arrangement make it possible for an easy break of the VMS cipher. Also why should I use Autem with a 16 shift?
I want to remind everyone this is a running a experiment and a work in progress the goal is to make sense of at least 3 folios and see if the vords are transferable so that it can be concise or make sense across the VMS.
l admit the cipher looks odd but it does lock up the VMS!
@Koen and Jkp
I believe I'm on to something here and a team effort is what cracking the VMS is all about. I think credit for a single person's idea is silly if we can crack it then it not just us who cracked or the Russians or any single group or person its the whole VMS community! We all realize its trial and error so please everyone why not bring new ideas to this possibility instead of negativity or sarcasm. If the VMS gets cracked in this fashion what I'm saying it's just as much Alberti's credit or Jkp' if we all work together we share in the credit. Think about we all have been working together, but our ego's are getting in the way!
(06-05-2017, 04:48 PM)coded Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
I want to remind everyone this is a running a experiment and a work in progress the goal is to make sense of at least 3 folios and see if the vords are transferable so that it can be concise or make sense across the VMS.
...
Then you'll have to ask someone who knows Latin to give an opinion on it, rather than using an online translation program, because online translation program software will attempt to turn it into a readable, grammatical translation, even if the words you feed into it are nonsense.
You also have a responsibility to tell them YOU are choosing the Latin words out of various letters that are assigned to each Voynich glyph so they understand that you could just as easily be creating French or Arabic or Hawaiian words with the same method.
(06-05-2017, 04:48 PM)coded Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@Koen and Jkp
I believe I'm on to something here and a team effort is what cracking the VMS is all about. I think credit for a single person's idea is silly if we can crack it then it not just us who cracked or the Russians or any single group or person its the whole VMS community! We all realize its trial and error so please everyone why not bring new ideas to this possibility instead of negativity or sarcasm. If the VMS gets cracked in this fashion what I'm saying it's just as much Alberti's credit or Jkp' if we all work together we share in the credit. Think about we all have been working together, but our ego's are getting in the way!
If you think I and others are approaching this by "trial and error" you are greatly mistaken. There are rational, methodical ways of studying how the text is constructed.
Also, if someone were to figure out, in a unique way, how to decipher the text before I personally figured it out, even though I contribute regularly to the forum, I would NOT expect to share in their credit unless I materially contributed
to the way in which they solved it.
Stellar, the problem with this cipher is exactly the same as with your previous one. If you let a thousand people solve it, you will get a thousand different results. But instead of explaining it once again, I'll tell you how to experience it.
Your proposal is built on the following premises:
- The VM is written in encoded Latin
- It is an Alberti cipher
- It is not a one-way cipher, which means that the recipient should be able to retrieve the encoded message unambiguously.
The third part is crucial, since the definition of a one-way cipher implies that it
cannot be deciphered.
If your proposed solution is correct, or has any merit to it whatsoever, you should be able to complete the following challenge:
- Print You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Make a physical version of your cipher disk - this should be easy with paper, I assume.
- Step away from all electronic devices, use no internet, apps or other tools that would have been unavailable to a 15th century recipient.
- Using pen, paper, your cipher disk and your proposed method, decipher the page.
- Time how long this takes you.
- Emerge from the woods victorious, with the solution to the Voynich and the proof of your method in your hands.
I promise you that it will not work, but feel free to prove me wrong.
If your method actually works, then provide a demonstration. Koen has made this suggestion above. However, rather than taking a whole page running it through the process, and then coming back to the forum with your finished product, I have something a bit different to suggest. Take a single line. I suggest one of the circular band of text that contains a patterned marker. My choice would be the outer band of VMs You are not allowed to view links.
Register or
Login to view. = White Aries.
From the marker clockwise it reads: olkeeody okody okchedy oky eey ........
Take the first vord and show in detail how to make sense of it.
As I see it EVA 'o' appears next to a number of letters in the outer ring of the cipher disk.
A = z; B = a; E = h; G = m; I = l; L = c; M = y; N = &; R = f; S = s; T = v; U = o
[If I haven't mistranscribed.]
Then what???
If Stellar's cipher works, he would be able to decipher a paragraph on one of the pages without pictures.
Anyway, as I said above, that's not Latin. It's words SELECTIVELY chosen by Stellar because they are or seem to be Latin.
In other words, he's using the same method he used with gematria, CHOOSING what he thinks it's supposed to say (in terms of selecting from a list of words) rather than developing a method to actually decipher it.
(06-05-2017, 07:30 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Stellar, the problem with this cipher is exactly the same as with your previous one. If you let a thousand people solve it, you will get a thousand different results. But instead of explaining it once again, I'll tell you how to experience it.
Your proposal is built on the following premises:
- The VM is written in encoded Latin
- It is an Alberti cipher
- It is not a one-way cipher, which means that the recipient should be able to retrieve the encoded message unambiguously.
The third part is crucial, since the definition of a one-way cipher implies that it cannot be deciphered.
If your proposed solution is correct, or has any merit to it whatsoever, you should be able to complete the following challenge:
- Print You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Make a physical version of your cipher disk - this should be easy with paper, I assume.
- Step away from all electronic devices, use no internet, apps or other tools that would have been unavailable to a 15th century recipient.
- Using pen, paper, your cipher disk and your proposed method, decipher the page.
- Time how long this takes you.
- Emerge from the woods victorious, with the solution to the Voynich and the proof of your method in your hands.
I promise you that it will not work, but feel free to prove me wrong.
Quote:@Koen It is not a one-way cipher, which means that the recipient should be able to retrieve the encoded message unambiguously.
I see what your saying, but maybe your we are both right and wrong. What I mean is if you read my other bottom post. Duke
Ercole could have been privy to the Alberti cipher yet used it in Latin without the VMS glyphs for messengers which were delivered in cipher text for strategic use. Of course both user and recipients had the cipher disks with the shift and same letters around the disk. All that was need for the message delivered was in cipher text.
Later on Ercole wrote a memoir and changed it to VMS like I have done on the disk and the Latin words I'm using are high frequency or low frequency which match. Perhaps Ercole did not care to ever read his autobiography. All speculation for now and I know you guys don't like it but traditional methods have failed and my out the box approach may prove correct.