The Voynich Ninja

(15-12-2016, 04:47 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Again, my arguments are:

1) I never saw it in the literature and images here. read about 1500 pages on bathing culture.
2) How can you use TWO which are attached that is like using two toothbrushes at the same time. One in your nose and one on the teeth.
3) how nice is the chain, or how impractical is that. .. ..I was talking about the chain on the flesh. have you ever felt a chain on your flesh?

People wear chains around their necks, wrists, and ankles all the time. I'd rather have a chain on my flesh that a blade-like scrapy thing.  

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I suspect the ones with chains are more likely to have a hinge to remove the scrapers but they do seem to frequently come in pairs—for what reason, I'm not sure. Here's a picture of one being You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Like the ones on vases, it's being used singly. But this You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (a mosaic), shows them in pairs.

By the way, I'm not saying they were used in pairs, only that they appear to frequently come in pairs, and that a bath girl (or other servant or slave in a bath house) might be holding two at the same time.

At this point I think it is important to point out that  we are not entirely sure whether the two parts are attached at all. The part where they would be connected is cleverly obscured by the nymph's hand.

(15-12-2016, 12:53 AM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.My intermediate conclusion:
1) unidentified things which nymphs hold in their hands likely must relate to each other;
2) they may have direct or abstract meaning; so:

... hence the cross in nymph's hands on the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. may mean a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..

Hi Searcher, I agree with you about the likeliness of relationship of these items and their abstract meanings, and the identification of the cross staff. I just realized that many of the objects can appear to have a common theme, one of measurement.

Spindles in the context of the fates measure lifetime. On another level the thread can indicate distance. On yet another level it can measure time in terms of how long it takes to fill the spindle, and/or an empty spindle can indicate very little time or distance. As it is a pointed object, it can also be used to indicate direction if need be, as I think might be the case in the MS, since generally they are not used in this manner, they usually hang straight down to be spun. Also there is the one with the red item around it, it is shaped like the symbol for ascending node, which may be an indication of nautical navigation. This one is on the page that I consider the first of the quire in its original form, which may inform the meaning of the rest of the occurrences of the spindle.

Calipers are used for measurement, outside calipers generally measure the widths or heights of 3d objects, but in the context of dividers on maps they can be used to measure distance in a drawing against a scale of measurement. If you put these ideas together, it may indicate distances across mountains, which would be farther and longer to traverse than shown on a map due to the 3d nature of the terrain involved.

Cross staffs are used to measure things far removed from oneself, or used to calculate distances. A line of sight is implied.

Water sticks are used to measure depth of tides, water levels of lakes and rivers, etc. It could be used metaphorically to indicate deeper depths that were measured by sounding lines. Or maybe it is a staff, as in walk softly and carry a big stick? Or a ceremonial staff held by a monarch, or a leveling staff or rod, which measures heights?

The rings, I don't know, I can't see how they would measure, except as a weight perhaps. But they could point out direction by aiming the gem. or it could be a measurement of wealth, indicating a kingdom or empire?

I think that's everything in terms of objects in the quire except the sickle/spoon thing. I don't think a sickle measures anything, but a spoon could measure volume, such as teaspoons or tablespoons do, larger spoons could measure cups or pints. metaphorically it could indicate lots of water, since it appears to be overflowing? In the context of measurement, could it be anything else?

I actually think at least one of the rings , the one held by the kingly figure with blue hair, represents a mirror. Perhaps mirrors were used for some types of observations or measurements?

Also, if we take the Thing to refer to a traveller's horlogium as well as a spindle, that would provide a more clear and direct connection between it and the cross staff etc.

(15-12-2016, 10:16 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I just realized that many of the objects can appear to have a common theme, one of measurement.

...

Yes, I completely concur. Searcher's insightful suggestion of the cross-staff jolted my thinking in that direction, as well.

A measuring theme not only would fit with the overall scientific tone of the manuscript (scientific in medieval terms, if not in modern terms), but would fit well with the way the rosettes page is constructed (I've always wondered if the triangle in the bottom left might represent an octant /sextant).

I too am wondering how a mirror might fit into a measuring theme. Is it a double meaning, intended as an attribute and as a measuring instrument? The attributes seem carefully selected. I don't think sextants had mirrors until the late 17th or 18th century (will have to look it up) but it occurred to me that mirrors aren't just for reflecting images, they can also be used to reflect light, which might aid in certain kinds of measurement (these days, portable laser lights are used as levels and sighting instruments). Light may not have been used yet in the 14th or 15th centuries, but it might be worth checking.


Edit: I just checked, mirrored sextants weren't in general use until the 1800s and only barely existed in primitive form at the very end of the 17th century.

They obseved the Sun by looking at its reflection rather than the thing itself. If one really wanted to have all items fit a scientific, and I would still say astronomical theme, then that is my best guess.

For a long time, I've been wondering about that reference to the eye (it looks like her eye is being poked out).

These days we use the term "line of sight" to describe many kinds of measurements, but I don't know when the term originated. Certainly the cross staffs and sighting tubes used "line of sight".


As far as myths go, there are a few myths about eyesight but none of them seem to fit very well except maybe this one...

Myth 1: Teiresias, a shepherd and one of the prophets of Apollo, came across a pair of snakes and destroyed them. Hera was enraged at the killing of the snakes and turned Teiresias into a woman who then became a priestess and mother. In her seventh year in this form, she found another pair of snakes and let them be, instead of killing them, and was released from the spell and became a man again.

Myth 2: Teiresias happened upon Athena and spied her bathing. In retaliation, the goddess blinded him. Teiresias's mother begged the goddes to restore his sight, but she couldn't or wouldn't, so instead, she bequeathed him the power to understand bird song.


So Teiresias is associated with watching a female bather, for being female (for a time), being blinded, and for discovering a pair of snakes (could the "calipers" be snakes?). However, I don't see a connection between these myths and constellations or measuring instruments and it's a stretch to call the "calipers" snakelike.

This item is similar to the simplest old instrument for measuring the diameter (caliper analogue). Is the same device can check the beating of the shaft and of the hole, order the shaft (pipe) is guaranteed to be inserted into the hole.

This is relevant, as the subject touched   stream of fluid (pipe).

About rings:
maybe, ring dial?
Azimuth dial, 16 century

Quote:Here's a picture of one being You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. 

@JKP. 
So, my arguments do not impress.  You can convince me, by finding a clear picture of two being used on the chain(s) as your pictures.