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Women's dagged sleeves - parallels?

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• Women's dagged sleeves - parallels?

• RE: Women's dagged sleeves - parallels?

  bi3mw > 29-07-2019, 05:13 PM

  The unusual thing about Virgo is that it's just a headgear. No fabric covers the neck or hangs down ( one-sided ). Such a headgear only fits a simple farmer's clothing, but Vigo definitely does not wear such clothes.

• RE: Women's dagged sleeves - parallels?

  MarcoP > 29-07-2019, 05:51 PM

  Virgo's headgear might be similar to that of this other flower-picker from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (1412-16). The man on the left in the linked image has dagged sleeves, but women in this cycle do not appear to wear them.

• RE: Women's dagged sleeves - parallels?

  Koen G > 29-07-2019, 10:55 PM

  bi3, that's not necessarily true. For example, this woman appears to me to have a similar hair-hat situation going on, but she's certainly no farmer:
  
  
  
  "Detail of Leontion, a female Epicurean philosopher from Ancient Greece, from Des Cleres et Nobles Femmes, anonymous French translation of Giovanni Boccaccio’s De Claris Mulieribus, Paris, c. 1400"
  
  Here, like in Marco's example, it is rather the man who is wearing a more sleeve-relevant garment. But these houppelandes were much more gender-fluid than we are accustomed to in modern times. If I understood the chronology correctly, the type of sleeves our VM women are wearing even originated as a garment worn by knights over their armor.

• RE: Women's dagged sleeves - parallels?

  bi3mw > 30-07-2019, 08:34 AM

  @Koen: You're right, I had only clothes with wide sleeves in mind that I know from reenactment. Since I have never seen  combinations with hats.

• RE: Women's dagged sleeves - parallels?

  Koen G > 30-07-2019, 08:46 PM

  I've been paying attention to this some more, and I don't think the combination "dagged sleeves with wide opening" plus unhorned band-like headgear should be too problematic. The horns are found in some examples and I agree they are very unlike the VM. But this was the selection I had made in my blog on the subject (only "horns" are bottom middle):
  
  
  
  And to illustrate the gender fluidity, here's a bearded falconer wearing a similar ensemble in the month September of the Buonconsiglio fresco cycle; the woman top middle in the composite image above is from the same cycle):
     

• RE: Women's dagged sleeves - parallels?

  VViews > 30-07-2019, 11:40 PM

  I remember those: the problem remains, that the particular combo that Gemini is wearing seems to be a rather rare thing.
  As you have found, for the Gemini man there are examples in art depicting the complete outfit, so surely the same must exist for Gemini woman.

• RE: Women's dagged sleeves - parallels?

  Koen G > 31-07-2019, 04:49 AM

  Certainly, but the problem is that the VM style dagged sleeves are very rare in women. One type is more common, where the sleeve edges continue down all the way into the trail of the dress, but I don't think those are true parallels. The VM sleeves' opening is situated entirely in front, not touching the floor.
  
  Especially in the case of Virgo though, I'm also ready to accept the possibility that the VM headgear is not an optimal representation of whatever the example looked like. It could be something like Marco posted earlier. It could also be a simple roll that turned out somewhat floppy. I don't really know...
  
  Do you have an example of what would be a good parallel for the headgear, regardless of further clothing?

• RE: Women's dagged sleeves - parallels?

  VViews > 01-08-2019, 08:06 PM

  (31-07-2019, 04:49 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Do you have an example of what would be a good parallel for the headgear, regardless of further clothing?

  
  Just FYI I'm not ignoring your question Koen G, only taking time to find the best examples I can!
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