https://www.voynich.ninja/ Sun, 20 Sep 2026 02:26:09 +0000 MyBB https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-6085.html Thu, 17 Sep 2026 03:35:15 +0000 Quentin Da Silva]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-6085.html
For some time, I’ve been exploring the historical context of Northern Italy and Central Europe in the early fifteenth century, with particular attention to Barbara of Cilli, Sigismund of Luxembourg, the Order of the Dragon, and related figures.

I realise this line of research may seem speculative, but I think this historical context is worth investigating.

I’ve already written quite a lot about this. After all, the Voynich Manuscript itself is what led me down this path.

I’d be very interested in discussing this further. The chronology appears broadly compatible, and several of the figures and motifs have caught my attention.

Even if this line of investigation ultimately turns out to be wrong, I think the figures themselves deserve closer attention, especially when compared with early fifteenth-century Central and Northern European material.

I’d also be interested to know what others think about the so-called “pangolin” figure. Could it possibly be related to, or inspired by, imagery associated with the Order of the Dragon?

At this stage, I’m treating this only as a visual and historical comparison, not as an identification.


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MS 408, fol. 80v.]]>
For some time, I’ve been exploring the historical context of Northern Italy and Central Europe in the early fifteenth century, with particular attention to Barbara of Cilli, Sigismund of Luxembourg, the Order of the Dragon, and related figures.

I realise this line of research may seem speculative, but I think this historical context is worth investigating.

I’ve already written quite a lot about this. After all, the Voynich Manuscript itself is what led me down this path.

I’d be very interested in discussing this further. The chronology appears broadly compatible, and several of the figures and motifs have caught my attention.

Even if this line of investigation ultimately turns out to be wrong, I think the figures themselves deserve closer attention, especially when compared with early fifteenth-century Central and Northern European material.

I’d also be interested to know what others think about the so-called “pangolin” figure. Could it possibly be related to, or inspired by, imagery associated with the Order of the Dragon?

At this stage, I’m treating this only as a visual and historical comparison, not as an identification.


  images.jpg (Size: 15.68 KB / Downloads: 226)
  Capture d'écran 2026-09-17 053427.png (Size: 15.69 KB / Downloads: 225)

MS 408, fol. 80v.]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-6078.html Sun, 13 Sep 2026 03:16:12 +0000 19820109NR]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-6078.html

The chapters cover:

- plants and parts: how to identify and for what illness to apply and how to process. 
- calendars: on when to harvest and when to plan for certain processing
- "astrology" section indicating the very practical phases of life of the patient and then indicating phase of life, symptoms illustrated by the human figures in the concentric circles and code for referring to the medicine
- general anatomy (and body fluids): where the figures codify the leading symptoms of the disease and treatment area
- process instructions: how to convert plants into medicine. the cylindrical objects on the left are graphical code for the production process bottom to top

I cross-checked the idea on three plants regarding their application and processing: Deadly Nightshade, Yarrow and Mandrake. 

I compared to general descriptions on how they should be processed and where identical code sits, which indicates the "towers" on the left might really represent the "cooking & cooling & processing receipt in full". I assume that back in time, the storage containers for medicine might have worked like a kanban "box", with the shape and color indicating in a codified way how to create the ingredient once it ran empty, the stripes for measurements of quantities or time, circles on white days or weeks resting and waiting. Narrow areas representing destillation or reduction, blue for watery extract, green for oil, red for heat. The text on the left would then list the plants, probably also refer back to a code block for symptoms and maybe the times in the year when to process. multiple plants mean either complex multiplant medicine or applicable for those plants. 

I looked into what I interpret as codified patient - symptoms overview, particularly the black goat (baby), the sheep (toddler) and then gemini (kids in school age). So as a medical you would choose your page based on the age = stage in life. the babies and toddlers illnesses = symptoms are encoded in the female figures, the barrel indicating that they cant fully express themselves. also explaining why there are fewer symptoms for those symbols. 

how I interpret the symbols: 

female figure: can be male or female, male: illness in males only - why the females: because appetite can be indicated using breasts.
15 women versus 30: half dose only (small patient)
star: with yellow dot: vomiting, grounded by "rope": diarrhea
the hand/arm reaching to the star might indicate level of activity
the other arm indicates location on the body
not sure about the hand position right now
breasts: patient is hungry (or not at all)
hair / head cover: fever, body temperatur for simple caps
crown might indicate either a rare condition or a wealthy patient who would get better treatment.
unconcious women: exactly that.
tears: indicating pain
hair: indicating pain type
rotation: no idea yet

the zodiac signs and what I think they represent as a stage in life of the patient:

capricorn: prepping for getting pregnant
aquarius: early pregnancy
pesces: pregnancy
goat: baby
sheep: toddler
gemini: (pre)school kids
lobsters: symbol for apprentice, the time kids learned a trade of craft, fokus on the hands
lion: puberty, start of sexual activity & sense of being superior
virgin: age of starting a family
libra: a more settled age 40-60
scorpio: the bitter, old people
sagittarius: the very old age to death

So - and i repeat myself - you look up the symptoms depending on the stage in life and then the code leads to the medicine.

Anatomy part: The figures sitting in basins: theories that link symptoms codified in the figure with the body part the disease sits and probably also the medicine that needs to be applied. 

all of these symbol code blocks: probably in most cases starting with a letter that represents a latin word. 

code blocks I suspect in that medieval database: Plant Description, Processing Instructions,  Dosis Instructions: example: "DAIM" = daily after meal.

What I would look for: books from the same time that are less information dense and more "normal language" of that time to find identical first letters of the words that describe common characteristics, processing of the known 3 plants and compare for the flow diagram hypothesis. Typical symptoms / triage systems of that time. 

Assumption: this book was super easy to read with a stencil on top that deciphered the letters and the symbols. once someone used that, they rarely forgot.

in my job, I get huge amounts of dirty data "thrown over fence" and have to figure out how to put it in databases. no medical expert.

Your turn, good luck with that approach and further guessing. the data base needs some reverse engineering to add headers.]]>

The chapters cover:

- plants and parts: how to identify and for what illness to apply and how to process. 
- calendars: on when to harvest and when to plan for certain processing
- "astrology" section indicating the very practical phases of life of the patient and then indicating phase of life, symptoms illustrated by the human figures in the concentric circles and code for referring to the medicine
- general anatomy (and body fluids): where the figures codify the leading symptoms of the disease and treatment area
- process instructions: how to convert plants into medicine. the cylindrical objects on the left are graphical code for the production process bottom to top

I cross-checked the idea on three plants regarding their application and processing: Deadly Nightshade, Yarrow and Mandrake. 

I compared to general descriptions on how they should be processed and where identical code sits, which indicates the "towers" on the left might really represent the "cooking & cooling & processing receipt in full". I assume that back in time, the storage containers for medicine might have worked like a kanban "box", with the shape and color indicating in a codified way how to create the ingredient once it ran empty, the stripes for measurements of quantities or time, circles on white days or weeks resting and waiting. Narrow areas representing destillation or reduction, blue for watery extract, green for oil, red for heat. The text on the left would then list the plants, probably also refer back to a code block for symptoms and maybe the times in the year when to process. multiple plants mean either complex multiplant medicine or applicable for those plants. 

I looked into what I interpret as codified patient - symptoms overview, particularly the black goat (baby), the sheep (toddler) and then gemini (kids in school age). So as a medical you would choose your page based on the age = stage in life. the babies and toddlers illnesses = symptoms are encoded in the female figures, the barrel indicating that they cant fully express themselves. also explaining why there are fewer symptoms for those symbols. 

how I interpret the symbols: 

female figure: can be male or female, male: illness in males only - why the females: because appetite can be indicated using breasts.
15 women versus 30: half dose only (small patient)
star: with yellow dot: vomiting, grounded by "rope": diarrhea
the hand/arm reaching to the star might indicate level of activity
the other arm indicates location on the body
not sure about the hand position right now
breasts: patient is hungry (or not at all)
hair / head cover: fever, body temperatur for simple caps
crown might indicate either a rare condition or a wealthy patient who would get better treatment.
unconcious women: exactly that.
tears: indicating pain
hair: indicating pain type
rotation: no idea yet

the zodiac signs and what I think they represent as a stage in life of the patient:

capricorn: prepping for getting pregnant
aquarius: early pregnancy
pesces: pregnancy
goat: baby
sheep: toddler
gemini: (pre)school kids
lobsters: symbol for apprentice, the time kids learned a trade of craft, fokus on the hands
lion: puberty, start of sexual activity & sense of being superior
virgin: age of starting a family
libra: a more settled age 40-60
scorpio: the bitter, old people
sagittarius: the very old age to death

So - and i repeat myself - you look up the symptoms depending on the stage in life and then the code leads to the medicine.

Anatomy part: The figures sitting in basins: theories that link symptoms codified in the figure with the body part the disease sits and probably also the medicine that needs to be applied. 

all of these symbol code blocks: probably in most cases starting with a letter that represents a latin word. 

code blocks I suspect in that medieval database: Plant Description, Processing Instructions,  Dosis Instructions: example: "DAIM" = daily after meal.

What I would look for: books from the same time that are less information dense and more "normal language" of that time to find identical first letters of the words that describe common characteristics, processing of the known 3 plants and compare for the flow diagram hypothesis. Typical symptoms / triage systems of that time. 

Assumption: this book was super easy to read with a stencil on top that deciphered the letters and the symbols. once someone used that, they rarely forgot.

in my job, I get huge amounts of dirty data "thrown over fence" and have to figure out how to put it in databases. no medical expert.

Your turn, good luck with that approach and further guessing. the data base needs some reverse engineering to add headers.]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-6072.html Thu, 10 Sep 2026 11:49:20 +0000 A.R.B.C.J]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-6072.html
I would like to propose a contextual hypothesis regarding the Voynich manuscript’s origin that addresses both its fluent, multi-scribe creation and its sudden erasure from the historical record. I hypothesize that the manuscript originated within a small, highly exclusive, and wealthy esoteric cult led by a charismatic visionary experiencing religious psychosis. The bizarre illustrations represent the leader’s divine, symbolic visions of a cosmocentric, non-Abrahamic theology, dictated aloud to the members. To preserve the "holiness" of these revelations, the affluent members funded the expensive vellum and developed a fluid, uniform writing system—acting as a sacred literacy barrier over their native spoken tongue. To maintain spiritual purity for divination, the group took a strict vow of total isolation, misleading their neighbors into believing they were simply moving away. Upon eventually being discovered by hostile outsiders, the group executed a desperate pact, dissolving their auxiliary records in chemical acid and self-destructing to preserve their secrets, leaving only this single holy book behind with a trusted child bound by a strict divine curse. Generations later, a final descendant fulfilled the vow by trading the text to an influential figure (likely entering the court of Rudolph II) before vanishing entirely, perfectly explaining the manuscript's internal consistency alongside its absolute lack of early provenance.

Ty for reading!]]>
I would like to propose a contextual hypothesis regarding the Voynich manuscript’s origin that addresses both its fluent, multi-scribe creation and its sudden erasure from the historical record. I hypothesize that the manuscript originated within a small, highly exclusive, and wealthy esoteric cult led by a charismatic visionary experiencing religious psychosis. The bizarre illustrations represent the leader’s divine, symbolic visions of a cosmocentric, non-Abrahamic theology, dictated aloud to the members. To preserve the "holiness" of these revelations, the affluent members funded the expensive vellum and developed a fluid, uniform writing system—acting as a sacred literacy barrier over their native spoken tongue. To maintain spiritual purity for divination, the group took a strict vow of total isolation, misleading their neighbors into believing they were simply moving away. Upon eventually being discovered by hostile outsiders, the group executed a desperate pact, dissolving their auxiliary records in chemical acid and self-destructing to preserve their secrets, leaving only this single holy book behind with a trusted child bound by a strict divine curse. Generations later, a final descendant fulfilled the vow by trading the text to an influential figure (likely entering the court of Rudolph II) before vanishing entirely, perfectly explaining the manuscript's internal consistency alongside its absolute lack of early provenance.

Ty for reading!]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-6064.html Tue, 08 Sep 2026 19:00:06 +0000 Adilah]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-6064.html I'm very much an interested amateur rather than a Voynich researcher, so please forgive me if I'm overlooking an identification that has already been discussed.
I've been looking at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and had a rather strange botanical thought.
The upper structure immediately reads to me as some kind of flower, but I started wondering whether it might instead represent a dried flower or fruit/seed capsule, particularly when the entire plant is considered rather than the reproductive structure in isolation.
I'm South African, and I grew up familiar with vygies (Aizoaceae). Some vygies have thick, spreading/ground-covering foliage and distinctive flowers that, when dried, leave a very different-looking reproductive structure. The visual resemblance between the Voynich drawing and a dried vygie/seed capsule caught my attention.
I am not suggesting that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a vygie. The historical/geographical problem is obvious, and I don't have the botanical expertise to make that claim.
What I'm wondering is something more basic:
Could the apparent “flower” in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. actually be a fruit/seed capsule or post-flowering structure?
And, if so:
Does the structure resemble any known plant family more closely when interpreted as a reproductive structure rather than a flower?
Does the apparently thick/spreading foliage support any particular family or growth habit?
Are there Aizoaceae or unrelated Old World plants with sufficiently similar morphology that the resemblance could be more than superficial?
Has anyone previously compared this particular Voynich illustration with succulent groundcover plants or Aizoaceae?
More generally, how much confidence should we place in the apparent flower/leaf/root morphology when assessing Voynich plants, given the possibility of artistic distortion?
One reason I'm asking is that some Voynich plants seem remarkably convincing while others are, frankly, spectacularly strange. ?
That made me wonder whether we're sometimes judging the botanical accuracy of the whole illustration when perhaps the artist was much more accurate about certain features than others.
So I'm curious what people who have spent far more time with the manuscript see here.
Am I seeing a meaningful botanical resemblance, or have I simply found another excellent example of the human brain being extremely good at finding patterns?
I'd genuinely love to hear the botanists/illustration specialists/long-time Voynich researchers weigh in.
Thank you!

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  Screenshot_20260908_205612_ChatGPT.jpg (Size: 935.13 KB / Downloads: 82) ]]> I'm very much an interested amateur rather than a Voynich researcher, so please forgive me if I'm overlooking an identification that has already been discussed.
I've been looking at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and had a rather strange botanical thought.
The upper structure immediately reads to me as some kind of flower, but I started wondering whether it might instead represent a dried flower or fruit/seed capsule, particularly when the entire plant is considered rather than the reproductive structure in isolation.
I'm South African, and I grew up familiar with vygies (Aizoaceae). Some vygies have thick, spreading/ground-covering foliage and distinctive flowers that, when dried, leave a very different-looking reproductive structure. The visual resemblance between the Voynich drawing and a dried vygie/seed capsule caught my attention.
I am not suggesting that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a vygie. The historical/geographical problem is obvious, and I don't have the botanical expertise to make that claim.
What I'm wondering is something more basic:
Could the apparent “flower” in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. actually be a fruit/seed capsule or post-flowering structure?
And, if so:
Does the structure resemble any known plant family more closely when interpreted as a reproductive structure rather than a flower?
Does the apparently thick/spreading foliage support any particular family or growth habit?
Are there Aizoaceae or unrelated Old World plants with sufficiently similar morphology that the resemblance could be more than superficial?
Has anyone previously compared this particular Voynich illustration with succulent groundcover plants or Aizoaceae?
More generally, how much confidence should we place in the apparent flower/leaf/root morphology when assessing Voynich plants, given the possibility of artistic distortion?
One reason I'm asking is that some Voynich plants seem remarkably convincing while others are, frankly, spectacularly strange. ?
That made me wonder whether we're sometimes judging the botanical accuracy of the whole illustration when perhaps the artist was much more accurate about certain features than others.
So I'm curious what people who have spent far more time with the manuscript see here.
Am I seeing a meaningful botanical resemblance, or have I simply found another excellent example of the human brain being extremely good at finding patterns?
I'd genuinely love to hear the botanists/illustration specialists/long-time Voynich researchers weigh in.
Thank you!

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  Screenshot_20260908_205531_ChatGPT.jpg (Size: 503.86 KB / Downloads: 82)

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  Screenshot_20260908_205612_ChatGPT.jpg (Size: 935.13 KB / Downloads: 82) ]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-6061.html Tue, 08 Sep 2026 06:44:35 +0000 JustAnotherTheory]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-6061.html
One of his most famous commissions is the Bible of Borso d'Este. Here is an example of an illustration of that Bible, next to a similar looking nymph from the VMS:


  01.png (Size: 290.69 KB / Downloads: 207)

Borso kept a huge library of manuscripts. Today, those manuscripts are part of the Biblioteca Estensa. Unfortunately, the website has dissapeared. But you can view it in the archive.org viewer:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

A particularly interesting MS in that collection is the Dante d'Este, an illustrated copy of Dante's works. In it, we see some striking imagery reminiscent of the VMS. Let's begin with swallowtail merlons:


  sw.png (Size: 1,019.69 KB / Downloads: 207)

Bathing scenes:


  b.png (Size: 273.42 KB / Downloads: 206)

Notice the naked nymphs bathing together on the right.

There are lots of illustrations of naked people, including women:


  n.png (Size: 1.17 MB / Downloads: 206)

The proportions seem to be like those of the VMS.

Borso's court placed enormous importance on astrology. Palazzo dei Diamanti's historical account says that Borso reportedly did not undertake important actions without the advice of his astrologers, particularly Michele Savonarola and Pellegrino Prisciani. Note that Savonarola wrote a treatise on thermal baths: De balneis et thermis naturalibus omnibus Italiae.

Note also that Borso d'Este had commissioned a herbal from Cadamosto, which has already been discussed as potentially relevant on this forum:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Some excerpts:


  654.png (Size: 498.93 KB / Downloads: 208)


  aaaaaaaaaaz.png (Size: 1.26 MB / Downloads: 206)

According to Italian herbal expert Sergio Toresella, the above mentioned herbal has similarities to the VMS.

So I think therefore that the VMS has something to do with the court of Borso d'Este.]]>
One of his most famous commissions is the Bible of Borso d'Este. Here is an example of an illustration of that Bible, next to a similar looking nymph from the VMS:


  01.png (Size: 290.69 KB / Downloads: 207)

Borso kept a huge library of manuscripts. Today, those manuscripts are part of the Biblioteca Estensa. Unfortunately, the website has dissapeared. But you can view it in the archive.org viewer:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

A particularly interesting MS in that collection is the Dante d'Este, an illustrated copy of Dante's works. In it, we see some striking imagery reminiscent of the VMS. Let's begin with swallowtail merlons:


  sw.png (Size: 1,019.69 KB / Downloads: 207)

Bathing scenes:


  b.png (Size: 273.42 KB / Downloads: 206)

Notice the naked nymphs bathing together on the right.

There are lots of illustrations of naked people, including women:


  n.png (Size: 1.17 MB / Downloads: 206)

The proportions seem to be like those of the VMS.

Borso's court placed enormous importance on astrology. Palazzo dei Diamanti's historical account says that Borso reportedly did not undertake important actions without the advice of his astrologers, particularly Michele Savonarola and Pellegrino Prisciani. Note that Savonarola wrote a treatise on thermal baths: De balneis et thermis naturalibus omnibus Italiae.

Note also that Borso d'Este had commissioned a herbal from Cadamosto, which has already been discussed as potentially relevant on this forum:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Some excerpts:


  654.png (Size: 498.93 KB / Downloads: 208)


  aaaaaaaaaaz.png (Size: 1.26 MB / Downloads: 206)

According to Italian herbal expert Sergio Toresella, the above mentioned herbal has similarities to the VMS.

So I think therefore that the VMS has something to do with the court of Borso d'Este.]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-6050.html Tue, 01 Sep 2026 14:27:26 +0000 bablackthorne]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-6050.html
The main difference I've noticed is what I'm calling the c-shaped joining crossbars. Other researchers have generally treated the four tall, looped glyphs, with or without crossbars, as a collection of eight distinct glyphs. But when I look closely at the manuscript, there are many examples where the left- and right-hand crossbar elements do not fully connect or continue through the upright. Those left- and right-hand c-and-bar-shaped crossbar elements can precede and follow one of the four upright characters, or, less commonly, only precede or only follow one. The point is that these combinations should not necessarily be thought of as atomic characters, but rather as compound structures.

They also appear to combine with one another, forming a separate double-c with a top bar that is often treated as a unique glyph, and they may or may not carry the small diacritical hook. This makes me wonder whether we're looking at independent components rather than eight atomic glyphs.

I would therefore remove the four crossed looped tall characters, the crossbar double-c, and the crossbar-double c with the overhead hook from the atomic character list, and instead introduce left- and right-hand crossbar modifiers with the constrained rules discussed above.

I also question some of the other positionality constraints others have raised and have noted some things of interest.
I've visually checked the manuscript quite extensively with regard to the figure-4-looking character that is often said to occur independently of the following o-like character. I haven't been able to find many convincing examples. The cases I can identify reliably seem to be degraded, overwritten, or partially formed text. That isn't proof that genuine exceptions don't exist, but so far the ambiguous examples aren't convincing to me. There are some standalone occurrences in the marginalia, where the figure-4 form appears by itself, but I'm not sure those should be treated the same way as the running text.

So far, the figure-4 seems to combine with and modify the o-shape to create an initiator complex. I have not found a convincing instance of that character appearing inside a word. Except for some standalone marginalia, I have found the figure-4 shape to be consistently followed by the o-shape in the running text. This appears to be a hard positional rule. I have examined claims of an “i,” “e,” or “c” following the figure-4, but the regions are smudgy and unclear, so I am not convinced. If someone can clearly point out exceptions, I would certainly like to know, so that this can accurately be classified as “almost always” instead of “always.”

The same goes for what I now consider to be the d-shaped terminator mark. It only appears at the end of a word and never inside. Many researchers have already noted it to be positionally restricted. I find it consistently word-final. However, it can be combined with the c-shaped forms and with the undotted-i-like minima in short clusters. From a reasonably large catalog, I can say with some confidence that the c-shaped form occurs once, twice, or three times before the terminator.

Likewise, and here is the interesting part, the minima commonly appears before the terminator once or twice, with three occurrences being rarer; I haven't found convincing examples of longer runs. The minima, however, combines in pen stroke with the d-shaped terminator so closely together that the resulting shape can resemble an “n,” an “m,” or even two “u” or “w” forms. I suspect these should be treated as a carefully constrained terminal-sequence rule.

I therefore propose that the m- and n-like shapes be removed from the token list rather than automatically treated as separate complex glyphs. Similar to the figure-4 being reclassified as a special-case initiator, the d-shaped terminator should instead be treated as a positionally restricted component.

There are softer rules, such as the figure-9-shaped character. It is heavily positionally biased toward the end of words, but can appear much less often at the beginning of words and even less often in the middle. There are others too, but they do not seem to fundamentally affect the core symbol model I am proposing here.

For example, I also find that the small diacritical hook frequently appears above the left and right crossbar components when they are conjoined. It can occur in other positions as well, although much less frequently, and there seems to be some positional structure to its distribution that I haven't worked out yet. For now, I would still classify it as a distinct modifier/component rather than simply part of a particular glyph.

The oft-referred-to “picnic table” character appears, in my examination, to be a standalone character that does not occur inside running words. I would consider it something like a rare pictogram that sits outside the coded text.
My aim isn't to claim that these observations establish a particular interpretation of the manuscript. Rather, I'm wondering whether a more explicitly compositional tokenization might produce a cleaner representation of the underlying system, and whether that could affect subsequent cryptanalytic analysis.

Final note: I have also begun cataloguing the distribution of the four upright forms at paragraph openings and other paragraph breaks. Their distribution is strikingly non-uniform, even apart from the occasional illuminated flourishes at these locations. For example, in the plant section from f1r–f57r, 206 of 219 identifiable paragraphs (94%) begin with a gallows; among those, the double-looped P accounts for 85, T for 66, K for 40, and F for 15. In Q20/Stars, the distribution among distinct paragraph-initial gallows words is similarly skewed: P 58%, T 26%, K 9%, F 7%. I don't yet know what this distribution means, but I think it is important structural information that should be preserved rather than collapsed into a single “gallows” category. I could not find any other clear character-level exceptions, aside from some difficult-to-interpret elaborate crossbar looping.

  Proposed VMS character grid.png (Size: 174.32 KB / Downloads: 125) ]]>
The main difference I've noticed is what I'm calling the c-shaped joining crossbars. Other researchers have generally treated the four tall, looped glyphs, with or without crossbars, as a collection of eight distinct glyphs. But when I look closely at the manuscript, there are many examples where the left- and right-hand crossbar elements do not fully connect or continue through the upright. Those left- and right-hand c-and-bar-shaped crossbar elements can precede and follow one of the four upright characters, or, less commonly, only precede or only follow one. The point is that these combinations should not necessarily be thought of as atomic characters, but rather as compound structures.

They also appear to combine with one another, forming a separate double-c with a top bar that is often treated as a unique glyph, and they may or may not carry the small diacritical hook. This makes me wonder whether we're looking at independent components rather than eight atomic glyphs.

I would therefore remove the four crossed looped tall characters, the crossbar double-c, and the crossbar-double c with the overhead hook from the atomic character list, and instead introduce left- and right-hand crossbar modifiers with the constrained rules discussed above.

I also question some of the other positionality constraints others have raised and have noted some things of interest.
I've visually checked the manuscript quite extensively with regard to the figure-4-looking character that is often said to occur independently of the following o-like character. I haven't been able to find many convincing examples. The cases I can identify reliably seem to be degraded, overwritten, or partially formed text. That isn't proof that genuine exceptions don't exist, but so far the ambiguous examples aren't convincing to me. There are some standalone occurrences in the marginalia, where the figure-4 form appears by itself, but I'm not sure those should be treated the same way as the running text.

So far, the figure-4 seems to combine with and modify the o-shape to create an initiator complex. I have not found a convincing instance of that character appearing inside a word. Except for some standalone marginalia, I have found the figure-4 shape to be consistently followed by the o-shape in the running text. This appears to be a hard positional rule. I have examined claims of an “i,” “e,” or “c” following the figure-4, but the regions are smudgy and unclear, so I am not convinced. If someone can clearly point out exceptions, I would certainly like to know, so that this can accurately be classified as “almost always” instead of “always.”

The same goes for what I now consider to be the d-shaped terminator mark. It only appears at the end of a word and never inside. Many researchers have already noted it to be positionally restricted. I find it consistently word-final. However, it can be combined with the c-shaped forms and with the undotted-i-like minima in short clusters. From a reasonably large catalog, I can say with some confidence that the c-shaped form occurs once, twice, or three times before the terminator.

Likewise, and here is the interesting part, the minima commonly appears before the terminator once or twice, with three occurrences being rarer; I haven't found convincing examples of longer runs. The minima, however, combines in pen stroke with the d-shaped terminator so closely together that the resulting shape can resemble an “n,” an “m,” or even two “u” or “w” forms. I suspect these should be treated as a carefully constrained terminal-sequence rule.

I therefore propose that the m- and n-like shapes be removed from the token list rather than automatically treated as separate complex glyphs. Similar to the figure-4 being reclassified as a special-case initiator, the d-shaped terminator should instead be treated as a positionally restricted component.

There are softer rules, such as the figure-9-shaped character. It is heavily positionally biased toward the end of words, but can appear much less often at the beginning of words and even less often in the middle. There are others too, but they do not seem to fundamentally affect the core symbol model I am proposing here.

For example, I also find that the small diacritical hook frequently appears above the left and right crossbar components when they are conjoined. It can occur in other positions as well, although much less frequently, and there seems to be some positional structure to its distribution that I haven't worked out yet. For now, I would still classify it as a distinct modifier/component rather than simply part of a particular glyph.

The oft-referred-to “picnic table” character appears, in my examination, to be a standalone character that does not occur inside running words. I would consider it something like a rare pictogram that sits outside the coded text.
My aim isn't to claim that these observations establish a particular interpretation of the manuscript. Rather, I'm wondering whether a more explicitly compositional tokenization might produce a cleaner representation of the underlying system, and whether that could affect subsequent cryptanalytic analysis.

Final note: I have also begun cataloguing the distribution of the four upright forms at paragraph openings and other paragraph breaks. Their distribution is strikingly non-uniform, even apart from the occasional illuminated flourishes at these locations. For example, in the plant section from f1r–f57r, 206 of 219 identifiable paragraphs (94%) begin with a gallows; among those, the double-looped P accounts for 85, T for 66, K for 40, and F for 15. In Q20/Stars, the distribution among distinct paragraph-initial gallows words is similarly skewed: P 58%, T 26%, K 9%, F 7%. I don't yet know what this distribution means, but I think it is important structural information that should be preserved rather than collapsed into a single “gallows” category. I could not find any other clear character-level exceptions, aside from some difficult-to-interpret elaborate crossbar looping.

  Proposed VMS character grid.png (Size: 174.32 KB / Downloads: 125) ]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-6033.html Thu, 20 Aug 2026 11:22:23 +0000 amelkin]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-6033.html
  (1) Some researchers consider Dr. Hartlieb too young to be connected to the Voynich Manuscript. I hold a different opinion and provide a rationale. Dr. Hartlieb was born in 1400, not 1410; otherwise, he could not possibly have participated in the Hussite Wars in 1419.

  (2) Dr. Hartlieb was the only person at the time who possessed the full spectrum of knowledge covered in the Voynich Manuscript. His works and materials contain drawings and diagrams resembling the manuscript's graphic content. Hartlieb's *Medico-Astrological Calendar* features various scripts and cipher systems incorporating up to 70% of the symbols found in the Voynich Manuscript, including the inscription "Michitonese".

  (3) Dr. Hartlieb did not write the Voynich Manuscript himself; instead, he commissioned five scribes to produce up to ten different versions based on his drafts, allowing them the freedom to generate words and drawings within certain parameters. This is evidenced by certain duplicated pages that differ in handwriting and detail (f70v1, f71r, f71v, f72r1). Therefore, there is no need to compare the handwriting of Dr. Hartlieb with that of the individuals who wrote the manuscript. The presence of duplicated pages and diagrams also indicates that the Voynich Manuscript is assembled from several surviving fragments belonging to different versions of the manuscript.

  (4) Regarding the depiction of the castle in the manuscript, researchers note that the fortress's general layout - four towers connected by walls, a moat or river, and a central building (*Herrenhaus*) - mirrors the original structure of Blutenburg Castle from that era with remarkable accuracy. This has led to the hypothesis that Hartlieb sketched Blutenburg Castle in his draft, while the scribes added the characteristic crenellations to the walls.]]>
  (1) Some researchers consider Dr. Hartlieb too young to be connected to the Voynich Manuscript. I hold a different opinion and provide a rationale. Dr. Hartlieb was born in 1400, not 1410; otherwise, he could not possibly have participated in the Hussite Wars in 1419.

  (2) Dr. Hartlieb was the only person at the time who possessed the full spectrum of knowledge covered in the Voynich Manuscript. His works and materials contain drawings and diagrams resembling the manuscript's graphic content. Hartlieb's *Medico-Astrological Calendar* features various scripts and cipher systems incorporating up to 70% of the symbols found in the Voynich Manuscript, including the inscription "Michitonese".

  (3) Dr. Hartlieb did not write the Voynich Manuscript himself; instead, he commissioned five scribes to produce up to ten different versions based on his drafts, allowing them the freedom to generate words and drawings within certain parameters. This is evidenced by certain duplicated pages that differ in handwriting and detail (f70v1, f71r, f71v, f72r1). Therefore, there is no need to compare the handwriting of Dr. Hartlieb with that of the individuals who wrote the manuscript. The presence of duplicated pages and diagrams also indicates that the Voynich Manuscript is assembled from several surviving fragments belonging to different versions of the manuscript.

  (4) Regarding the depiction of the castle in the manuscript, researchers note that the fortress's general layout - four towers connected by walls, a moat or river, and a central building (*Herrenhaus*) - mirrors the original structure of Blutenburg Castle from that era with remarkable accuracy. This has led to the hypothesis that Hartlieb sketched Blutenburg Castle in his draft, while the scribes added the characteristic crenellations to the walls.]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-6029.html Tue, 18 Aug 2026 07:10:22 +0000 ololololo]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-6029.html
  Consonants1.png (Size: 72.51 KB / Downloads: 192)

  Consonants3.png (Size: 75.19 KB / Downloads: 189)

  FontanaSubstCircle.png (Size: 76.41 KB / Downloads: 191)

  FontanaVowels-1.png (Size: 74.96 KB / Downloads: 192)
Roughly speaking, the entire Fontana alphabet is built around O and I. Therefore, the lines written in this cipher look rather “monotonous”:

  SecretumCipher.png (Size: 517.38 KB / Downloads: 191)
The Voynichese script, as is well known, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. — C and I — and most of the symbols (except, perhaps, the gallows) can be reduced to these two.

Maybe this is telling us something?]]>
  Consonants1.png (Size: 72.51 KB / Downloads: 192)

  Consonants3.png (Size: 75.19 KB / Downloads: 189)

  FontanaSubstCircle.png (Size: 76.41 KB / Downloads: 191)

  FontanaVowels-1.png (Size: 74.96 KB / Downloads: 192)
Roughly speaking, the entire Fontana alphabet is built around O and I. Therefore, the lines written in this cipher look rather “monotonous”:

  SecretumCipher.png (Size: 517.38 KB / Downloads: 191)
The Voynichese script, as is well known, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. — C and I — and most of the symbols (except, perhaps, the gallows) can be reduced to these two.

Maybe this is telling us something?]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-6007.html Sat, 08 Aug 2026 11:13:01 +0000 bi3mw]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-6007.html by  Dr. Fletcher Crowe und Mona Ashour

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.


  book01.png (Size: 290.45 KB / Downloads: 332) ]]> by  Dr. Fletcher Crowe und Mona Ashour

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.


  book01.png (Size: 290.45 KB / Downloads: 332) ]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-6004.html Thu, 06 Aug 2026 12:12:59 +0000 Grimalkin]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-6004.html What if the manuscript were some kind of binder or index, either written by a scientist of the time or by a scribe, coded in order to protect the ideas of his “master”? That could explain why some of the flowers don’t look accurate: he might have drawn them based on what he understood. And the unreadable text could come from a related object that served as a translation key ?

Je me pose une question à propos de ce livre, et je le demandais si cela avait déjà été envisagé : Et si ce manuscrit était une sorte de classeur ou un index, soit rédigé par un scientifique de l'époque, soit par un scribe, de manière codé pour protéger les idées de son "maître", ce qui expliquerait pourquoi certaines fleurs ne sont pas ressemblante : il aurait dessiné selon ce qu'il a compris. Et le côté illisible pourrait venir d'un objet lié servant de base de traduction ?]]> What if the manuscript were some kind of binder or index, either written by a scientist of the time or by a scribe, coded in order to protect the ideas of his “master”? That could explain why some of the flowers don’t look accurate: he might have drawn them based on what he understood. And the unreadable text could come from a related object that served as a translation key ?

Je me pose une question à propos de ce livre, et je le demandais si cela avait déjà été envisagé : Et si ce manuscrit était une sorte de classeur ou un index, soit rédigé par un scientifique de l'époque, soit par un scribe, de manière codé pour protéger les idées de son "maître", ce qui expliquerait pourquoi certaines fleurs ne sont pas ressemblante : il aurait dessiné selon ce qu'il a compris. Et le côté illisible pourrait venir d'un objet lié servant de base de traduction ?]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5996.html Sun, 02 Aug 2026 22:03:48 +0000 Damiro]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5996.html
Language is Old High German form and variations are:
[*]
fisc
[*]fisk
[*]fisch
[*]fish
[*]fisg
[*]variants beginning with v, including visc, visch, and visg

- Most likely phonemic ?



Theory derived from:
- The amount of letters/symbols.
- The assumptions regarding the origin of a scribe
- The year it was written (1400s to 1500s)
- In my language (Slavic) we say "fish" for this zodiac as well.

The only thing that does not match well is the shape of symbols...]]>
Language is Old High German form and variations are:
[*]
fisc
[*]fisk
[*]fisch
[*]fish
[*]fisg
[*]variants beginning with v, including visc, visch, and visg

- Most likely phonemic ?



Theory derived from:
- The amount of letters/symbols.
- The assumptions regarding the origin of a scribe
- The year it was written (1400s to 1500s)
- In my language (Slavic) we say "fish" for this zodiac as well.

The only thing that does not match well is the shape of symbols...]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5995.html Sun, 02 Aug 2026 16:38:36 +0000 JustAnotherTheory]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5995.html

  007.png (Size: 49.48 KB / Downloads: 130)

I challenge this reading. My reading is as follows: "anthiton (o)lebadeia". These two words represent two ancient Greek cities, close to one another geographically, known for their connection to an ancient oracle ritual called the oracle of Trophonios. Before going further, I would like to show these cities as they appear in 15th-16th century maps. Please note the strikingly varied and sometimes different naming of these cities in contemprary maps.


  002.png (Size: 286.24 KB / Downloads: 130)

(Map from 1508 Rome, München, Bayerische Staatsbibliothek -- ESlg/2 A.gr.b. 981


  003.png (Size: 401.01 KB / Downloads: 129)

(Map from 1486 Ulm, München, Bayerische Staatsbibliothek -- 2 Inc.c.a. 1820 a)


  001.png (Size: 20.86 KB / Downloads: 131)

(Map from 1462 Bologna, München, Bayerische Staatsbibliothek -- Rar. 124)


  004.png (Size: 297.06 KB / Downloads: 130)

(Map from 17th Century, München, Bayerische Staatsbibliothek -- 2 Mapp. 13)

Here's a side-by-side descirption of these two cities in a Latin geography book:


  005.png (Size: 256.01 KB / Downloads: 130)

As you can see, there are many different spellings and namings for these two cities. And my proposal for the interpreration of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is the following:


  006.png (Size: 51.19 KB / Downloads: 129)

But the geographic proximity of these cities and the apparent similarity with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is not the only reason I'm making this suggestion. In Lebadeia, in ancient times, the cult of Trophonius was active. In particular, an oracle was present in one of the caves nearby the city, where some incredible things (allegedly) occured.

In order to consult the oracle, a person had to prepare themselves:

• eat a series of sacred herbs,
  
• bathe in the River Herkryna,
  
• drink from two rivers called Lethe and Mnemosyne,
  
• and then descend into a cave.
  

What happened then in the cave is, to put it mildly, an apparent supernatural horror show. Most participants were so frightened that they were unable to speak for days, sometimes weeks. They witnessed, apparently, the god Trophonius himself in person, revealing to them the secrets of the universe. This often included strange depictions of the cosmos, the heavens, people turning into stars and so forth.

We have two major accounts of the happenings inside the cave of Trophonius. One is from Plutarch's De Genio Socratis, while the other is an eyewitness account from the historian and traveller Pausanias.

Unfortunately, not much remains of Lebadeia/Olebadia/Livadia today. There are some archeological findings, such as this sun face:


  figure_011.jpg (Size: 66.04 KB / Downloads: 131)

Trophonius is often depicted as a beekeeper:


  sdf.jpg (Size: 22.16 KB / Downloads: 130)

The surroundings of the city are abundant with warm water springs and ancients baths:


  654.png (Size: 509.73 KB / Downloads: 130)

So... in conclusion, here is a theory that has the merit, at least, of being completely different from any others presented here before  


______________________

References: 

München, Bayerische Staatsbibliothek -- Rar. 124 - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

München, Bayerische Staatsbibliothek -- ESlg/2 A.gr.b. 981 - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

München, Bayerische Staatsbibliothek -- 2 Inc.c.a. 1820 a - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

München, Bayerische Staatsbibliothek -- 2 Mapp. 13 - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.]]>

  007.png (Size: 49.48 KB / Downloads: 130)

I challenge this reading. My reading is as follows: "anthiton (o)lebadeia". These two words represent two ancient Greek cities, close to one another geographically, known for their connection to an ancient oracle ritual called the oracle of Trophonios. Before going further, I would like to show these cities as they appear in 15th-16th century maps. Please note the strikingly varied and sometimes different naming of these cities in contemprary maps.


  002.png (Size: 286.24 KB / Downloads: 130)

(Map from 1508 Rome, München, Bayerische Staatsbibliothek -- ESlg/2 A.gr.b. 981


  003.png (Size: 401.01 KB / Downloads: 129)

(Map from 1486 Ulm, München, Bayerische Staatsbibliothek -- 2 Inc.c.a. 1820 a)


  001.png (Size: 20.86 KB / Downloads: 131)

(Map from 1462 Bologna, München, Bayerische Staatsbibliothek -- Rar. 124)


  004.png (Size: 297.06 KB / Downloads: 130)

(Map from 17th Century, München, Bayerische Staatsbibliothek -- 2 Mapp. 13)

Here's a side-by-side descirption of these two cities in a Latin geography book:


  005.png (Size: 256.01 KB / Downloads: 130)

As you can see, there are many different spellings and namings for these two cities. And my proposal for the interpreration of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is the following:


  006.png (Size: 51.19 KB / Downloads: 129)

But the geographic proximity of these cities and the apparent similarity with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is not the only reason I'm making this suggestion. In Lebadeia, in ancient times, the cult of Trophonius was active. In particular, an oracle was present in one of the caves nearby the city, where some incredible things (allegedly) occured.

In order to consult the oracle, a person had to prepare themselves:

• eat a series of sacred herbs,
  
• bathe in the River Herkryna,
  
• drink from two rivers called Lethe and Mnemosyne,
  
• and then descend into a cave.
  

What happened then in the cave is, to put it mildly, an apparent supernatural horror show. Most participants were so frightened that they were unable to speak for days, sometimes weeks. They witnessed, apparently, the god Trophonius himself in person, revealing to them the secrets of the universe. This often included strange depictions of the cosmos, the heavens, people turning into stars and so forth.

We have two major accounts of the happenings inside the cave of Trophonius. One is from Plutarch's De Genio Socratis, while the other is an eyewitness account from the historian and traveller Pausanias.

Unfortunately, not much remains of Lebadeia/Olebadia/Livadia today. There are some archeological findings, such as this sun face:


  figure_011.jpg (Size: 66.04 KB / Downloads: 131)

Trophonius is often depicted as a beekeeper:


  sdf.jpg (Size: 22.16 KB / Downloads: 130)

The surroundings of the city are abundant with warm water springs and ancients baths:


  654.png (Size: 509.73 KB / Downloads: 130)

So... in conclusion, here is a theory that has the merit, at least, of being completely different from any others presented here before  


______________________

References: 

München, Bayerische Staatsbibliothek -- Rar. 124 - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

München, Bayerische Staatsbibliothek -- ESlg/2 A.gr.b. 981 - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

München, Bayerische Staatsbibliothek -- 2 Inc.c.a. 1820 a - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

München, Bayerische Staatsbibliothek -- 2 Mapp. 13 - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5992.html Sun, 02 Aug 2026 04:05:34 +0000 Damiro]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5992.html
Not sure if anyone has noticed before, but there is a striking similarity between the unknown device of Trajan column and the Voynich water piper or whatever those are.



and this drawing (Page 78)



PS this is my first post, I just joined because youtube kept suggesting the videos, also not sure what is the proper image hosting server people like to use here.

Any thoughts, opinions?

Cheers!]]>
Not sure if anyone has noticed before, but there is a striking similarity between the unknown device of Trajan column and the Voynich water piper or whatever those are.



and this drawing (Page 78)



PS this is my first post, I just joined because youtube kept suggesting the videos, also not sure what is the proper image hosting server people like to use here.

Any thoughts, opinions?

Cheers!]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5973.html Mon, 27 Jul 2026 23:54:31 +0000 NineofTails]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5973.html https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5944.html Tue, 21 Jul 2026 01:19:35 +0000 conlangyalesbaby]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5944.html I believe the general consensus that the masses are stumped by MS-408, not only by the originality of it's script, but by what the actual glyph's could represent.  The possibility of a decryption is out there, yet knowing the behavior of the MS-408, I doubt it would relate to any known language with fluent grammar.  Well behaved sentences from a language with a decryption, I guarantee will not happen with MS-408.  Even a straight across substitution using "Eva" would still show irregular behavior of its said language.  Serious cryptologists like Turing, Friedman, Tilman and Currier all gave it a shot to try and give meaning to MS-408 without success.  Does this imply the MS-408 design was meant to thwart decryption, especially with the world throwing into the ring with no complete translated message that's coherent?  I say yes, sorry!  Let's face it Yale covets' an obscure duck that has no quacking language, maybe it does have some meaning, but nothing fluent.

When I say meaning it maybe be enough to show the world what is in MS-408, however it will not be like reading Edgar Allen Poe!

Here is the other side of the coin, if it is a conlang solely constructed to have meaning for an in group of ?????? when decoded than the language maybe alien.  However what decryption option is the one to show the alien text?  Are they people like I just said or are they the fallen?  Now I know I just left some readers behind.  The whole document seems like a cover up and I'm digging deep because, MS-408 has been around for an enough time to already be translated.

People go off on a tangent about gobeliegook, hoax and so many ai translations then we are always stuck at staring at MS-408 dead ends.  Or is there a group referencing MS-408 as there lost language from a previous decryption?  If it is an alien language does it have a cross reference to a known language and here is where I have too let go or I will get in trouble.  You have enough, farewell.


  cult.JPG (Size: 72.74 KB / Downloads: 157) ]]> I believe the general consensus that the masses are stumped by MS-408, not only by the originality of it's script, but by what the actual glyph's could represent.  The possibility of a decryption is out there, yet knowing the behavior of the MS-408, I doubt it would relate to any known language with fluent grammar.  Well behaved sentences from a language with a decryption, I guarantee will not happen with MS-408.  Even a straight across substitution using "Eva" would still show irregular behavior of its said language.  Serious cryptologists like Turing, Friedman, Tilman and Currier all gave it a shot to try and give meaning to MS-408 without success.  Does this imply the MS-408 design was meant to thwart decryption, especially with the world throwing into the ring with no complete translated message that's coherent?  I say yes, sorry!  Let's face it Yale covets' an obscure duck that has no quacking language, maybe it does have some meaning, but nothing fluent.

When I say meaning it maybe be enough to show the world what is in MS-408, however it will not be like reading Edgar Allen Poe!

Here is the other side of the coin, if it is a conlang solely constructed to have meaning for an in group of ?????? when decoded than the language maybe alien.  However what decryption option is the one to show the alien text?  Are they people like I just said or are they the fallen?  Now I know I just left some readers behind.  The whole document seems like a cover up and I'm digging deep because, MS-408 has been around for an enough time to already be translated.

People go off on a tangent about gobeliegook, hoax and so many ai translations then we are always stuck at staring at MS-408 dead ends.  Or is there a group referencing MS-408 as there lost language from a previous decryption?  If it is an alien language does it have a cross reference to a known language and here is where I have too let go or I will get in trouble.  You have enough, farewell.


  cult.JPG (Size: 72.74 KB / Downloads: 157) ]]>