https://www.voynich.ninja/ Fri, 17 Apr 2026 01:08:45 +0000 MyBB https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-4671.html Mon, 28 Apr 2025 15:17:55 +0000 RadioFM]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-4671.html That kind of analysis has been done on the VMS, describing some of the handwriting as slanted and fast/fluid (at least w/ some hands) AFAIK, which has had some impact on the cipher question IMO.

I'd love to hear your (all) thoughts on the hwriting of the C.S., either as a whole or how it evolves over the pages.

---

I know this is not medievalia, but it seemed the proper subforum to post in given the common theme of handwriting style underlying the question. Feel free to move it mods]]> That kind of analysis has been done on the VMS, describing some of the handwriting as slanted and fast/fluid (at least w/ some hands) AFAIK, which has had some impact on the cipher question IMO.

I'd love to hear your (all) thoughts on the hwriting of the C.S., either as a whole or how it evolves over the pages.

---

I know this is not medievalia, but it seemed the proper subforum to post in given the common theme of handwriting style underlying the question. Feel free to move it mods]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-4542.html Fri, 21 Mar 2025 15:44:20 +0000 davidma]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-4542.html
I was having a look through Trento's digital manuscript collection and found this interesting looking annotation in the margin of a 1450 copy of Diaconus "Historia Romana" from Iohannes Hinderbach's collection. He was Archbishop in Trento between the 1440s and 1460s. 


  l glyph.PNG (Size: 233 KB / Downloads: 309)  
  trentomanuscript.PNG (Size: 19.35 KB / Downloads: 458)

The glyph looks a lot like the voynichese "l" glyph. Seems to be used as a number here but unsure about which one :/

Has anyone else found other VM glyphs in other manuscripts? I remember VM "y" was a common scribal abbreviation and that VM "q" appears in a Lombard cipher from the mid-1400, any other ones?

Link to the Trento manuscript here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.]]>
I was having a look through Trento's digital manuscript collection and found this interesting looking annotation in the margin of a 1450 copy of Diaconus "Historia Romana" from Iohannes Hinderbach's collection. He was Archbishop in Trento between the 1440s and 1460s. 


  l glyph.PNG (Size: 233 KB / Downloads: 309)  
  trentomanuscript.PNG (Size: 19.35 KB / Downloads: 458)

The glyph looks a lot like the voynichese "l" glyph. Seems to be used as a number here but unsure about which one :/

Has anyone else found other VM glyphs in other manuscripts? I remember VM "y" was a common scribal abbreviation and that VM "q" appears in a Lombard cipher from the mid-1400, any other ones?

Link to the Trento manuscript here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-3955.html Fri, 24 Feb 2023 18:12:18 +0000 Addsamuels]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-3955.html Particularly interested in Latin, German, French and Italian.
Regards,
Alex]]> Particularly interested in Latin, German, French and Italian.
Regards,
Alex]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-3750.html Fri, 11 Mar 2022 13:16:26 +0000 RenegadeHealer]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-3750.html You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

The climate in Timbuktu, Mali is ideal for the natural preservation of ancient codices. In Medieval Times Timbuktu was a major overland transport hub, and amassed one of the world’s largest library of mostly Arabic language manuscripts, on all sorts of topics.

The reason this makes me happy is because in recent years Timbuktu has seen a lot of Islamic fundamentalist unrest, and is not safe for Western tourists or researchers to visit. As the article describes, there have been (so far only slightly successful) attempts by militant Islamists to destroy these codices. We may have lost the priceless libraries at Alexandria and Baghdad, but copies of some of the manuscripts contained there might very well have made their way to Timbuktu.

It’s my opinion that Medieval Arabic manuscripts are a potentially fruitful source of precedents for anyone exploring alchemical and/or herbal themes in the VMs. Or earlier and closer-to-the-source versions of mythology and philosophy from the world of Classical Antiquity.

Learning to read classical Arabic and spending my days looking at digitized alchemical manuscripts is one idea I have for a retirement project, if I ever retire.]]> You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

The climate in Timbuktu, Mali is ideal for the natural preservation of ancient codices. In Medieval Times Timbuktu was a major overland transport hub, and amassed one of the world’s largest library of mostly Arabic language manuscripts, on all sorts of topics.

The reason this makes me happy is because in recent years Timbuktu has seen a lot of Islamic fundamentalist unrest, and is not safe for Western tourists or researchers to visit. As the article describes, there have been (so far only slightly successful) attempts by militant Islamists to destroy these codices. We may have lost the priceless libraries at Alexandria and Baghdad, but copies of some of the manuscripts contained there might very well have made their way to Timbuktu.

It’s my opinion that Medieval Arabic manuscripts are a potentially fruitful source of precedents for anyone exploring alchemical and/or herbal themes in the VMs. Or earlier and closer-to-the-source versions of mythology and philosophy from the world of Classical Antiquity.

Learning to read classical Arabic and spending my days looking at digitized alchemical manuscripts is one idea I have for a retirement project, if I ever retire.]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-3559.html Wed, 02 Jun 2021 22:22:54 +0000 Davidsch]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-3559.html scribal sigla that were in use by medieval scribes are often referred to as glyphs, marks or
Tironian notes, which is a general term and does not refer to a specific symbol.

So there are for example: the breves (ĕ), acutes (ó), apices (u᷄), the thorn, the rotunda, ampersand, etc,



But what is the name referring to the curl that is used on the CH to become SH?

If there is no name, can we agree on a name for it?]]> scribal sigla that were in use by medieval scribes are often referred to as glyphs, marks or
Tironian notes, which is a general term and does not refer to a specific symbol.

So there are for example: the breves (ĕ), acutes (ó), apices (u᷄), the thorn, the rotunda, ampersand, etc,



But what is the name referring to the curl that is used on the CH to become SH?

If there is no name, can we agree on a name for it?]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-3546.html Fri, 07 May 2021 20:24:47 +0000 geoffreycaveney]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-3546.html
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Geoffrey]]>
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Geoffrey]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-3543.html Tue, 04 May 2021 19:31:57 +0000 geoffreycaveney]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-3543.html
I have attached files showing several pages from this manuscript. The English title of the manuscript is "Mass Lectionary with Readings from the Epistles (Epistolarium)". For those who may be interested, the manuscript is apparently available for sale You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for $55,000.

The description of the manuscript on this webpage states the following: "The attractive Gothic script – each majuscule embellished and filled with pale yellow – pen initials of great refinement and delicacy, and relatively early velvet binding, all point to a commission of some importance."

My question is the following: For those who are knowledgeable about these matters, how do the shapes, ducts, aspects, etc., of the letterforms of this script compare with other English, French, Occitan, other French regional, German, Gothic, other Central European, and other Continental European cursive scripts of this time period?

Geoffrey

  Bordeaux ms 1375-1400 p 1.PNG (Size: 1.92 MB / Downloads: 210)

  Bordeaux ms 1375-1400 p 3.PNG (Size: 1.84 MB / Downloads: 208)

  Bordeaux ms 1375-1400 end p 1.PNG (Size: 1.63 MB / Downloads: 207)

  Bordeaux ms 1375-1400 end p 2.PNG (Size: 1.79 MB / Downloads: 199) ]]>
I have attached files showing several pages from this manuscript. The English title of the manuscript is "Mass Lectionary with Readings from the Epistles (Epistolarium)". For those who may be interested, the manuscript is apparently available for sale You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for $55,000.

The description of the manuscript on this webpage states the following: "The attractive Gothic script – each majuscule embellished and filled with pale yellow – pen initials of great refinement and delicacy, and relatively early velvet binding, all point to a commission of some importance."

My question is the following: For those who are knowledgeable about these matters, how do the shapes, ducts, aspects, etc., of the letterforms of this script compare with other English, French, Occitan, other French regional, German, Gothic, other Central European, and other Continental European cursive scripts of this time period?

Geoffrey

  Bordeaux ms 1375-1400 p 1.PNG (Size: 1.92 MB / Downloads: 210)

  Bordeaux ms 1375-1400 p 3.PNG (Size: 1.84 MB / Downloads: 208)

  Bordeaux ms 1375-1400 end p 1.PNG (Size: 1.63 MB / Downloads: 207)

  Bordeaux ms 1375-1400 end p 2.PNG (Size: 1.79 MB / Downloads: 199) ]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-3390.html Sat, 10 Oct 2020 00:06:54 +0000 Anton]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-3390.html
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Note the swapped T-O map in 2r.

Note also the chart in 20r where almost every label starts with "p" (I presume, the abbreviation for "per"), which somewhat reinforces my idea of Voynich label prefixes as operators.]]>
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Note the swapped T-O map in 2r.

Note also the chart in 20r where almost every label starts with "p" (I presume, the abbreviation for "per"), which somewhat reinforces my idea of Voynich label prefixes as operators.]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-3389.html Fri, 09 Oct 2020 23:42:55 +0000 Anton]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-3389.html Register or Login to view. in French language attracted my attention, because it features plant descriptions in what appears to be a highly structured way, with many paragraphs starting in the same fashion with "pom" (?) or the "p a" (?) abbreviation.

Maybe it deserves a closer look.

All literature on this MS that I was able to find in Google search is in French, which is a language I did not master.]]> Register or Login to view. in French language attracted my attention, because it features plant descriptions in what appears to be a highly structured way, with many paragraphs starting in the same fashion with "pom" (?) or the "p a" (?) abbreviation.

Maybe it deserves a closer look.

All literature on this MS that I was able to find in Google search is in French, which is a language I did not master.]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-3304.html Wed, 29 Jul 2020 18:41:07 +0000 RenegadeHealer]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-3304.html Register or Login to view.

Citation: Florentine Grain Dealer Account Book, 1466-1524. (SPC) MSS BH 005 COCH

Inspired by Helmut's comment about You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., I decided to do a deep dive into Google Images looking for medieval ledgers and trade books. I'm sure if I understood Italian that would be a big help, but somehow I still imagine I wouldn't be able to reliably transcribe this page into normal Roman letters and Arabic numerals. Especially the last line. Is this just my modern eye not used to a very different but commonly readable type of medieval script, or is this the intentional use of obfuscation to keep sensitive information private?]]> Register or Login to view.

Citation: Florentine Grain Dealer Account Book, 1466-1524. (SPC) MSS BH 005 COCH

Inspired by Helmut's comment about You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., I decided to do a deep dive into Google Images looking for medieval ledgers and trade books. I'm sure if I understood Italian that would be a big help, but somehow I still imagine I wouldn't be able to reliably transcribe this page into normal Roman letters and Arabic numerals. Especially the last line. Is this just my modern eye not used to a very different but commonly readable type of medieval script, or is this the intentional use of obfuscation to keep sensitive information private?]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-3294.html Sun, 19 Jul 2020 17:48:24 +0000 MichelleL11]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-3294.html


As kindly provided by Helmut Winkler in this thread: 



You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.



exemplars of his handwriting are available in Frank Furbeth's book, Johannes Hartlieb, Untersuchungen zu Leben und Werk, specifically page 280.




  Screen Shot 2020-07-19 at 12.32.39 PM.png (Size: 88.83 KB / Downloads: 232)



But I've either read too much of it or that specific page is somehow blocked from me.  I even tried logging in with another computer but I guess the address is the same(?) so I was similarly blocked.


Direct link: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

If someone could retrieve that page and post it, I'd be really grateful.

I also note that there may be the same handwriting samples at Karl Drescher, "Johann Hartlieb" Eurphorion vol (26 or maybe 25,the cites are inconsistent) (1924) at page 348 but this seems less likely to be available -- probably because of copyright, or maybe just chance, I've only found older volumes of this German literary magazine available online.]]>


As kindly provided by Helmut Winkler in this thread: 



You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.



exemplars of his handwriting are available in Frank Furbeth's book, Johannes Hartlieb, Untersuchungen zu Leben und Werk, specifically page 280.




  Screen Shot 2020-07-19 at 12.32.39 PM.png (Size: 88.83 KB / Downloads: 232)



But I've either read too much of it or that specific page is somehow blocked from me.  I even tried logging in with another computer but I guess the address is the same(?) so I was similarly blocked.


Direct link: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

If someone could retrieve that page and post it, I'd be really grateful.

I also note that there may be the same handwriting samples at Karl Drescher, "Johann Hartlieb" Eurphorion vol (26 or maybe 25,the cites are inconsistent) (1924) at page 348 but this seems less likely to be available -- probably because of copyright, or maybe just chance, I've only found older volumes of this German literary magazine available online.]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-3226.html Sun, 31 May 2020 03:39:23 +0000 -JKP-]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-3226.html An interesting pen test in a Hebrew manuscript that has a mixture of Hebrew and Latin on the flyleaves (this is from the rear fly-leaf, which is actually the front fly-leaf since Hebrew is written right-to-left):


  HebrewLatinHebr297.png (Size: 112.03 KB / Downloads: 131)

Cod.Hebr.287]]> An interesting pen test in a Hebrew manuscript that has a mixture of Hebrew and Latin on the flyleaves (this is from the rear fly-leaf, which is actually the front fly-leaf since Hebrew is written right-to-left):


  HebrewLatinHebr297.png (Size: 112.03 KB / Downloads: 131)

Cod.Hebr.287]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-3177.html Fri, 01 May 2020 10:05:49 +0000 Hallfiry]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-3177.html Twaetihaoyc". Grimm couldn't decipher it and set it aside. A few years later he came across a print of a better transcription of the original document and found the word was actually the name ΓΩΔΕΦΡΗΔΟΥϹ, Godefredus, and somebody originally transcribed it, who didn't know Greek and thus matched it to the most similar looking Latin letter.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.]]> Twaetihaoyc". Grimm couldn't decipher it and set it aside. A few years later he came across a print of a better transcription of the original document and found the word was actually the name ΓΩΔΕΦΡΗΔΟΥϹ, Godefredus, and somebody originally transcribed it, who didn't know Greek and thus matched it to the most similar looking Latin letter.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-3049.html Fri, 17 Jan 2020 23:54:31 +0000 -JKP-]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-3049.html Here's a quick example of what happens when you push against the direction of the quill.

One of the reason the tails (connected macrons) in medieval scripts are generally added in a separate stroke is because the scribe re-aligns the quill to pull it in the correct direction for dispensing the ink.

If you don't do that, the tip jitters and the ink splats.

This scribe apparently didn't want to lift the pen to add the tails in a separate stroke. He reversed direction and drew upwards and back and the ink feathered out and splashed. I don't see this very often in manuscripts so I thought I'd post it for general information of something that is unconventional:


  AgainstPen.png (Size: 108.23 KB / Downloads: 364) ]]> Here's a quick example of what happens when you push against the direction of the quill.

One of the reason the tails (connected macrons) in medieval scripts are generally added in a separate stroke is because the scribe re-aligns the quill to pull it in the correct direction for dispensing the ink.

If you don't do that, the tip jitters and the ink splats.

This scribe apparently didn't want to lift the pen to add the tails in a separate stroke. He reversed direction and drew upwards and back and the ink feathered out and splashed. I don't see this very often in manuscripts so I thought I'd post it for general information of something that is unconventional:


  AgainstPen.png (Size: 108.23 KB / Downloads: 364) ]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-3037.html Tue, 07 Jan 2020 18:36:37 +0000 Anton]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-3037.html
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.


  MM.jpg (Size: 442.55 KB / Downloads: 266)

What's the MM here? Miserere mei?]]>
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.


  MM.jpg (Size: 442.55 KB / Downloads: 266)

What's the MM here? Miserere mei?]]>