<![CDATA[The Voynich Ninja - Marginalia]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/ Wed, 20 May 2026 23:38:46 +0000 MyBB <![CDATA[Something strange about Cod. Sang. 1068]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5630.html Sat, 18 Apr 2026 09:18:20 +0000 JustAnotherTheory]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5630.html

.png   Sans titre.png (Size: 49.52 KB / Downloads: 201)

The writing style reminds one of the marginalia on the VMS:


.png   2.png (Size: 33.39 KB / Downloads: 200)

There several more examples of the above in the manuscript. For information, Cod. Sang. 1068 is a 14th-15th century MS from Switzerland. It was digitized recently, you can find it here:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.]]>

.png   Sans titre.png (Size: 49.52 KB / Downloads: 201)

The writing style reminds one of the marginalia on the VMS:


.png   2.png (Size: 33.39 KB / Downloads: 200)

There several more examples of the above in the manuscript. For information, Cod. Sang. 1068 is a 14th-15th century MS from Switzerland. It was digitized recently, you can find it here:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.]]> <![CDATA[Basel MS. A V 23]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5547.html Wed, 08 Apr 2026 18:55:34 +0000 JustAnotherTheory]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5547.html Register or Login to view., from around 1400-1416 from a Carthusian Monastery.


.png   04.png (Size: 30.24 KB / Downloads: 133)


.png   03.png (Size: 28.89 KB / Downloads: 133)

There are also many instances of the "m" that starts like an "a", as in f116v:


.png   02.png (Size: 36.51 KB / Downloads: 122)


And many instances of "8" being used at end of words:


.png   01.png (Size: 28.65 KB / Downloads: 122)

Some "aiiin":


.png   05.png (Size: 23.6 KB / Downloads: 123)

And some other Voynich-y looking glyphs:


.png   06.png (Size: 60.79 KB / Downloads: 122) ]]> Register or Login to view., from around 1400-1416 from a Carthusian Monastery.


.png   04.png (Size: 30.24 KB / Downloads: 133)


.png   03.png (Size: 28.89 KB / Downloads: 133)

There are also many instances of the "m" that starts like an "a", as in f116v:


.png   02.png (Size: 36.51 KB / Downloads: 122)


And many instances of "8" being used at end of words:


.png   01.png (Size: 28.65 KB / Downloads: 122)

Some "aiiin":


.png   05.png (Size: 23.6 KB / Downloads: 123)

And some other Voynich-y looking glyphs:


.png   06.png (Size: 60.79 KB / Downloads: 122) ]]> <![CDATA[Another candidate for matching the VMS marginalia]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5513.html Fri, 03 Apr 2026 16:43:46 +0000 JustAnotherTheory]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5513.html Register or Login to view. and f116v. It comes from a German Carthusian monastery in 1431. Here are some examples:


.png   adv.png (Size: 187.15 KB / Downloads: 187)

What do you think?

EDIT: here is a link to the MS: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.]]> Register or Login to view. and f116v. It comes from a German Carthusian monastery in 1431. Here are some examples:


.png   adv.png (Size: 187.15 KB / Downloads: 187)

What do you think?

EDIT: here is a link to the MS: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.]]> <![CDATA[Huth's reading of f116v: "gâs" as "ganz" confirmed in medieval German corpus]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5449.html Sat, 14 Mar 2026 21:46:26 +0000 Torsten]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5449.html Register or Login to view. as "so nim gâs mich," interpreting "gâs" as an East Central German dialectal form of "ganz" (wholly, completely), yielding "so nimm mich ganz."

I was able to verify this reading using the Reference Corpus of Middle High German / Early New High German (Referenzkorpus Mittelhochdeutsch) hosted at Ruhr-Universität Bochum. The corpus contains three instances of "gâs" used as an adverb meaning "ganz":

1. "den vrouwin Und îlte des gâs zouwin"
2. "den hiez er bindin Und bat im gâs ir uindin"
3. "Sie azin gâs un̄ quamin"


.png   gas.png (Size: 44.17 KB / Downloads: 229)

Notably, all three instances are spelled with a long-s in word-final position.

In each case, "gâs" functions as the adverb "ganz" (wholly, entirely, completely). All three instances come from the same text, classified as "omd" — ostmitteldeutsch (East Central German). This is the dialect region that includes Thuringia, Saxony, and the area around Prague and Vienna. The corpus evidence shows that "gâs" with word-final long-s is attested. This means "gâs mich" can be read as two separate words — the adverb "gâs" (ganz, wholly) and the pronoun "mich" (me) — yielding "so nim gâs mich": "so take me wholly."

The form "gâs" for "ganz" is therefore attested in medieval East Central German — the dialect region consistent with Huth's proposed geographical origin of the manuscript.

Sources:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
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You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.]]> Register or Login to view. as "so nim gâs mich," interpreting "gâs" as an East Central German dialectal form of "ganz" (wholly, completely), yielding "so nimm mich ganz."

I was able to verify this reading using the Reference Corpus of Middle High German / Early New High German (Referenzkorpus Mittelhochdeutsch) hosted at Ruhr-Universität Bochum. The corpus contains three instances of "gâs" used as an adverb meaning "ganz":

1. "den vrouwin Und îlte des gâs zouwin"
2. "den hiez er bindin Und bat im gâs ir uindin"
3. "Sie azin gâs un̄ quamin"


.png   gas.png (Size: 44.17 KB / Downloads: 229)

Notably, all three instances are spelled with a long-s in word-final position.

In each case, "gâs" functions as the adverb "ganz" (wholly, entirely, completely). All three instances come from the same text, classified as "omd" — ostmitteldeutsch (East Central German). This is the dialect region that includes Thuringia, Saxony, and the area around Prague and Vienna. The corpus evidence shows that "gâs" with word-final long-s is attested. This means "gâs mich" can be read as two separate words — the adverb "gâs" (ganz, wholly) and the pronoun "mich" (me) — yielding "so nim gâs mich": "so take me wholly."

The form "gâs" for "ganz" is therefore attested in medieval East Central German — the dialect region consistent with Huth's proposed geographical origin of the manuscript.

Sources:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
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You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.]]> <![CDATA[What is this on the top left of the Rosette Page?]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5362.html Fri, 13 Feb 2026 11:08:02 +0000 eggyk]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5362.html

.png   image_2026-02-13_114308385.png (Size: 41.39 KB / Downloads: 206)
.png   image_2026-02-13_114401416.png (Size: 67.71 KB / Downloads: 206)

The "a" has a left loop curving more strongly upwards than a standard a in voynichese, unless i'm mistaken. The middle letters look a lot like a cr, but the dot above makes me see ci as well. 

If it isn't voynichese, what does it say? _acrio, _aciio, Iacrio, Iaciio? 

If voynichese, is it rachio , rachid ?]]>

.png   image_2026-02-13_114308385.png (Size: 41.39 KB / Downloads: 206)
.png   image_2026-02-13_114401416.png (Size: 67.71 KB / Downloads: 206)

The "a" has a left loop curving more strongly upwards than a standard a in voynichese, unless i'm mistaken. The middle letters look a lot like a cr, but the dot above makes me see ci as well. 

If it isn't voynichese, what does it say? _acrio, _aciio, Iacrio, Iaciio? 

If voynichese, is it rachio , rachid ?]]> <![CDATA[A SOMEWHAT IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5338.html Sat, 07 Feb 2026 19:59:48 +0000 JustAnotherTheory]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5338.html BSB Cgm 250, based on a classic Weltkronik from Jans Enkel. This particular MS was copied in southern Germany in the 1st quarter of the 15th century. It's "interesting" because of some matches to the VMS marginalia. The handwriting appears at first glance to be reminiscent of folio f116v:


.png   sonim.png (Size: 46.97 KB / Downloads: 289)

But wait, there's more:


.png   michiton.png (Size: 91.91 KB / Downloads: 281)

This looks like the classic "michiton", except for the missing "i". 

There is also a match to some handwriting of folio f17r:


.png   milior.png (Size: 108.9 KB / Downloads: 281)

And many more "amazing" coincidences appear in this manuscript in relation to the VMS.

Here is a link to the MS: 

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

A beautiful MS indeed with many drawings, that remind one of the Biblia Pauperum style that lies so close to the VMS.

_____

Anyway, a small "divertissement" while we wait for a more important announcement.]]> BSB Cgm 250, based on a classic Weltkronik from Jans Enkel. This particular MS was copied in southern Germany in the 1st quarter of the 15th century. It's "interesting" because of some matches to the VMS marginalia. The handwriting appears at first glance to be reminiscent of folio f116v:


.png   sonim.png (Size: 46.97 KB / Downloads: 289)

But wait, there's more:


.png   michiton.png (Size: 91.91 KB / Downloads: 281)

This looks like the classic "michiton", except for the missing "i". 

There is also a match to some handwriting of folio f17r:


.png   milior.png (Size: 108.9 KB / Downloads: 281)

And many more "amazing" coincidences appear in this manuscript in relation to the VMS.

Here is a link to the MS: 

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

A beautiful MS indeed with many drawings, that remind one of the Biblia Pauperum style that lies so close to the VMS.

_____

Anyway, a small "divertissement" while we wait for a more important announcement.]]> <![CDATA[Some potential matches(?) from dutch manuscript]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5298.html Mon, 26 Jan 2026 11:08:15 +0000 eggyk]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5298.html Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. marginalia. 

Manuscript: Deventer, Athenaeumbibliotheek : 111 E 7 KL 
Ijssel Region, First half of 15th century
Link to manuscript: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.


.png   image_2026-01-26_113357383.png (Size: 59.37 KB / Downloads: 229)


Usage of ß 

Im not sure about how many dutch manuscripts have been found with this writing style and variance of symbols. In 15th century ijssel region, i would think that the native language of the author(s) would be somewhere on the spectrum between middle dutch, lower saxon or german, but i'm not certain. If so, the "so nim" section could plausibly be written by someone from the region.

This manuscript uses ß throughout the text. Was that symbol used in middle dutch, or was it a strictly german letter? Either way, perhaps relevant to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. marginalia "muß".

"Her" examples

There are many examples of "Her", with varied looping styles. To my untrained eye, most are similar to f17r for the H and E. The R is different. I would be interested to know the meaning of this word within this latin manuscript and the context of its usage. Many of them are captialised, but some are not.

Its noteworthy that many of these capital H's consist of a seperated left side stroke that is almost identical to the L mentioned later in this post. Perhaps the writer on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. began writing a H one word too early instead of L, noticed their mistake before completing the H and could simply leave it alone with the legible L intact. 

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Luēz̄ + additional ēz̄ words

The manuscript uses the ēz̄ ending semi-frequently through the text, including a potential luēz̄ match. Here are some examples along with many other words with the same ending; it would be helpful if somebody can tell what the ending represents across different words. If there is a clear usage pattern for the ending, it could shine light on the uncontracted spelling of "luēz̄".

Here is a word seemingly ending "uēz̄", which is the most relevant here.
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Here are some other examples, most/all with "coēz̄" 
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Capital L examples, with diagnonal bottom
It appears that the author writes their capital Ls with a diagonal stroke at the bottom, similar in look to f17r. The L in this potential "luez" example isn't looped, but the author is inconsistent in this, shown in another example where different Ls are used in a single sentence. 
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Portat/Portas
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Usage of different "D" symbols 
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EVA-like examples
These aren't voynichese words of course, but many words contain letters that have a similar style to EVA "n,r,s,u"
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These are by no means an extensive list of examples; they are all throughout the text and the text is rather long. I do have page numbers for each of the images in the document I used to collate them, so if there is a question about one of them let me know and i'll provide the location in the document. Hopefully someone finds it interesting!]]> Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. marginalia. 

Manuscript: Deventer, Athenaeumbibliotheek : 111 E 7 KL 
Ijssel Region, First half of 15th century
Link to manuscript: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.


.png   image_2026-01-26_113357383.png (Size: 59.37 KB / Downloads: 229)


Usage of ß 

Im not sure about how many dutch manuscripts have been found with this writing style and variance of symbols. In 15th century ijssel region, i would think that the native language of the author(s) would be somewhere on the spectrum between middle dutch, lower saxon or german, but i'm not certain. If so, the "so nim" section could plausibly be written by someone from the region.

This manuscript uses ß throughout the text. Was that symbol used in middle dutch, or was it a strictly german letter? Either way, perhaps relevant to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. marginalia "muß".

"Her" examples

There are many examples of "Her", with varied looping styles. To my untrained eye, most are similar to f17r for the H and E. The R is different. I would be interested to know the meaning of this word within this latin manuscript and the context of its usage. Many of them are captialised, but some are not.

Its noteworthy that many of these capital H's consist of a seperated left side stroke that is almost identical to the L mentioned later in this post. Perhaps the writer on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. began writing a H one word too early instead of L, noticed their mistake before completing the H and could simply leave it alone with the legible L intact. 

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Luēz̄ + additional ēz̄ words

The manuscript uses the ēz̄ ending semi-frequently through the text, including a potential luēz̄ match. Here are some examples along with many other words with the same ending; it would be helpful if somebody can tell what the ending represents across different words. If there is a clear usage pattern for the ending, it could shine light on the uncontracted spelling of "luēz̄".

Here is a word seemingly ending "uēz̄", which is the most relevant here.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Here are some other examples, most/all with "coēz̄" 
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Capital L examples, with diagnonal bottom
It appears that the author writes their capital Ls with a diagonal stroke at the bottom, similar in look to f17r. The L in this potential "luez" example isn't looped, but the author is inconsistent in this, shown in another example where different Ls are used in a single sentence. 
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Portat/Portas
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Usage of different "D" symbols 
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

EVA-like examples
These aren't voynichese words of course, but many words contain letters that have a similar style to EVA "n,r,s,u"
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
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These are by no means an extensive list of examples; they are all throughout the text and the text is rather long. I do have page numbers for each of the images in the document I used to collate them, so if there is a question about one of them let me know and i'll provide the location in the document. Hopefully someone finds it interesting!]]> <![CDATA[On the word "luez" in the marginalia of folio f17v]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5246.html Fri, 16 Jan 2026 17:22:48 +0000 JustAnotherTheory]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5246.html

.png   qsdqsdqsdz.png (Size: 569.85 KB / Downloads: 298)

I am now focusing on the middle word, "luez". This word appears in many writings of the 15th century German scribe, Nicolaus von Dinkelsbühl. Here are a few examples:


.png   qsdqsd.png (Size: 43.8 KB / Downloads: 297)

This is from the manuscript BSB Clm 14319. Here is another one, from the manuscript Tractatus de partibus paenitentiae et de VII vitiis:


.png   sqdqsda.png (Size: 108.32 KB / Downloads: 297)

As you can see, this ressembles the VMS "luez":


.png   asas.png (Size: 52.39 KB / Downloads: 299)

Could this be a match?]]>

.png   qsdqsdqsdz.png (Size: 569.85 KB / Downloads: 298)

I am now focusing on the middle word, "luez". This word appears in many writings of the 15th century German scribe, Nicolaus von Dinkelsbühl. Here are a few examples:


.png   qsdqsd.png (Size: 43.8 KB / Downloads: 297)

This is from the manuscript BSB Clm 14319. Here is another one, from the manuscript Tractatus de partibus paenitentiae et de VII vitiis:


.png   sqdqsda.png (Size: 108.32 KB / Downloads: 297)

As you can see, this ressembles the VMS "luez":


.png   asas.png (Size: 52.39 KB / Downloads: 299)

Could this be a match?]]> <![CDATA[I found "michiton" in a 15th century manuscript from the Netherlands]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5244.html Fri, 16 Jan 2026 09:37:20 +0000 JustAnotherTheory]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5244.html Florarium temporum (BSB Clm 10436) written by a certain Nicolaas Clopper in 1483, we can see what looks like the word "michiton":


.png   sc.png (Size: 103.71 KB / Downloads: 126)

Compare this with the marking on the folio You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. of the VMS, that looks similar:


.png   dzd.png (Size: 63.11 KB / Downloads: 126)

There are also some tube-looking shapes in parts of the manuscript:


.png   qscqsc.png (Size: 61.98 KB / Downloads: 126)

You can find a digitized copy of the manuscript here (scroll to the bottom of the page): You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.]]> Florarium temporum (BSB Clm 10436) written by a certain Nicolaas Clopper in 1483, we can see what looks like the word "michiton":


.png   sc.png (Size: 103.71 KB / Downloads: 126)

Compare this with the marking on the folio You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. of the VMS, that looks similar:


.png   dzd.png (Size: 63.11 KB / Downloads: 126)

There are also some tube-looking shapes in parts of the manuscript:


.png   qscqsc.png (Size: 61.98 KB / Downloads: 126)

You can find a digitized copy of the manuscript here (scroll to the bottom of the page): You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.]]> <![CDATA[I've never seen anyone talk about these markings]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5242.html Thu, 15 Jan 2026 19:13:33 +0000 pangiotis]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5242.html Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
All of these have odd scribbles and they're all on the left side except the last one.


They all have the same voynichese character at the end: y (the one that looks a 9) i'm not sure about You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

These markings are a bit bigger than the regular characters.

.png   Screenshot 2026-01-15 200824.png (Size: 70.08 KB / Downloads: 122) ]]> Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
All of these have odd scribbles and they're all on the left side except the last one.


They all have the same voynichese character at the end: y (the one that looks a 9) i'm not sure about You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

These markings are a bit bigger than the regular characters.

.png   Screenshot 2026-01-15 200824.png (Size: 70.08 KB / Downloads: 122) ]]> <![CDATA[Angles of the 4 lines on the last page: the top line is a separate thought?(!)]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5163.html Sun, 21 Dec 2025 21:23:41 +0000 addekallstrom]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5163.html
As you can see on the picture below, the top line is about as flat/straight of an angle as you would expect from someone writing by hand, it is essentially perfect.

The bottom three lines, all of them, are arched, almost vaulted, rising upwards towards the middle of the page before falling downwards again.

To me, it clearly looks like the first line was written at one point in time and the other three lines were written together at a separate time. It could still be the same person or whatever, but such a radical shift in tilting does not change within seconds. The first line is separate from the other three at least in time. 

It could still be the same guy writing "buck's liver for lunch" at 08:00 and then when he clocks out at 17:00 he writes his charm for his pregnant wife or whatever, but you're not gonna get it closer than that.

[Image: Ohn93mS]´

edit: ehh.. why doesn't my picture show?

edit 2: Thank you for explaining how to upload pictures! 

.png   221400.png (Size: 1.52 MB / Downloads: 132) ]]>
As you can see on the picture below, the top line is about as flat/straight of an angle as you would expect from someone writing by hand, it is essentially perfect.

The bottom three lines, all of them, are arched, almost vaulted, rising upwards towards the middle of the page before falling downwards again.

To me, it clearly looks like the first line was written at one point in time and the other three lines were written together at a separate time. It could still be the same person or whatever, but such a radical shift in tilting does not change within seconds. The first line is separate from the other three at least in time. 

It could still be the same guy writing "buck's liver for lunch" at 08:00 and then when he clocks out at 17:00 he writes his charm for his pregnant wife or whatever, but you're not gonna get it closer than that.

[Image: Ohn93mS]´

edit: ehh.. why doesn't my picture show?

edit 2: Thank you for explaining how to upload pictures! 

.png   221400.png (Size: 1.52 MB / Downloads: 132) ]]> <![CDATA[Everything about "pox leber" as a minced oath, and an earlier source.]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5148.html Wed, 17 Dec 2025 11:33:07 +0000 Koen G]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5148.html Register or Login to view.. In the dialogue, uncivilized characters use various compound words consisting of "pox-" combined with a body part. Pox belly, pox wounds, pox bones, pox liver...

Even in ancient cultures, the custom existed to swear oaths by the Gods, and this persisted in medieval and early modern Europe. The earlier practice was to swear by parts of God's body. If you swear something by Christ's five holy wounds, or any other part of his earthly manifestation, you're making it clear that you mean it. 

Obviously the priest doesn't like it when you do this, so people come up with euphemistic "minced oaths" to avoid actually saying the word "God". In modern English we have "gosh" or "golly", in Dutch "pot" as in "potverdomme", in Frech the "bleu" in "sacrebleu". In 14th century English, "God" is replaced by minced forms like "gog" and "cock" (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).

The attestation in the 16th century Fastnachtspiele is such a case where "poxleber" is used as a minced form of "Gotts Leber", "God's liver". I have regularly opposed the relevance of this fragment for f116v, exactly because of this context. You can have a boorish carnivalesque character use "poxleber" in a dialogue, but that doesn't mean we should expect a scribe (any scribe) to use it out of the sacreblue. It's as if Henry Gray would write "D'oh! I used the wrong graph here!" in the margins while preparing his famous book on human anatomy.

Yesterday, I came across a sermon book by Viennese Theologian, professor and historian You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., active in the first half of the 15th century (a century before Hans Sachs). The MS is BSB CLM 293, f.310r (scan 623). You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I can't transcribe this kind of Latin, but luckily Marco was able to help:


.jpg   pox.jpg (Size: 284 KB / Downloads: 323)

ChatGPT translates the (incomplete) transcription like this:

Quote:There are to be reproved those who swear by shameful creatures, likewise thinking themselves not bound, as when they say “pox grmt poxlaus zais”, since in such words the Creator of those things still shines forth. Those who swear falsely in this way are perjurers and sinners.

I further observe that even more reprehensible are those who swear by things which neither are nor ever will be, thinking themselves not bound, as those who say “sam mir pox gamiger gameri”.

Why does this matter?

The "minced oath" interpretation of "poxleber" is still quite popular. But so far, we only had a century-late attestation in a dissimilar source. Now, we have a sermon by someone active in pre-1450 Vienna, complaining about "pox" swearing by the people. 

What this passage teaches us:
  1. The minced oath is already spelled with "x".
  2. It is interpreted as swearing an oath, and the sin is false testimony, perjury. The message is: you shouldn't think you can get away with false promises by twisting the name of God.
  3. It is understood as a mangled version of the name of the Creator.
  4. It is also understood as the name of a creature, which means that they are aware of the "bock". Just like the "cock" in the English example mentioned earlier, "pot" in Dutch and "bleu" in French, the minced name of God drifted towards an existing "replacement" word.

What this means for the Voynich "poxleber":
  1. If you want to read it as "God's liver", it is unlikely to be a cry of anger or frustration: the scribe is swearing a solemn oath by God's liver. Which formulations do we expect when swearing an oath, and what is the scribe's vow?
  2. Swearing oaths like this was clearly done by people in the first half of the 15th century, but apparently frowned upon and mocked by the learned class. Would we expect this uncivilized form written by someone who has clearly had some education?
  3. The spelling "x" over "cks" is likely inspired by this oath-usage, but awareness of the animal was present in the oath. Since spelling was not standardized, would we not rather expect the ingredient in the VM?

What remains: the preceding paragraph also contains some pox, but I am unable to transcribe the Latin. Also, the German phrases appear to be renditions of spoken language and are hard for me to understand fully.

Edit: added MS link.]]> Register or Login to view.. In the dialogue, uncivilized characters use various compound words consisting of "pox-" combined with a body part. Pox belly, pox wounds, pox bones, pox liver...

Even in ancient cultures, the custom existed to swear oaths by the Gods, and this persisted in medieval and early modern Europe. The earlier practice was to swear by parts of God's body. If you swear something by Christ's five holy wounds, or any other part of his earthly manifestation, you're making it clear that you mean it. 

Obviously the priest doesn't like it when you do this, so people come up with euphemistic "minced oaths" to avoid actually saying the word "God". In modern English we have "gosh" or "golly", in Dutch "pot" as in "potverdomme", in Frech the "bleu" in "sacrebleu". In 14th century English, "God" is replaced by minced forms like "gog" and "cock" (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).

The attestation in the 16th century Fastnachtspiele is such a case where "poxleber" is used as a minced form of "Gotts Leber", "God's liver". I have regularly opposed the relevance of this fragment for f116v, exactly because of this context. You can have a boorish carnivalesque character use "poxleber" in a dialogue, but that doesn't mean we should expect a scribe (any scribe) to use it out of the sacreblue. It's as if Henry Gray would write "D'oh! I used the wrong graph here!" in the margins while preparing his famous book on human anatomy.

Yesterday, I came across a sermon book by Viennese Theologian, professor and historian You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., active in the first half of the 15th century (a century before Hans Sachs). The MS is BSB CLM 293, f.310r (scan 623). You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I can't transcribe this kind of Latin, but luckily Marco was able to help:


.jpg   pox.jpg (Size: 284 KB / Downloads: 323)

ChatGPT translates the (incomplete) transcription like this:

Quote:There are to be reproved those who swear by shameful creatures, likewise thinking themselves not bound, as when they say “pox grmt poxlaus zais”, since in such words the Creator of those things still shines forth. Those who swear falsely in this way are perjurers and sinners.

I further observe that even more reprehensible are those who swear by things which neither are nor ever will be, thinking themselves not bound, as those who say “sam mir pox gamiger gameri”.

Why does this matter?

The "minced oath" interpretation of "poxleber" is still quite popular. But so far, we only had a century-late attestation in a dissimilar source. Now, we have a sermon by someone active in pre-1450 Vienna, complaining about "pox" swearing by the people. 

What this passage teaches us:
  1. The minced oath is already spelled with "x".
  2. It is interpreted as swearing an oath, and the sin is false testimony, perjury. The message is: you shouldn't think you can get away with false promises by twisting the name of God.
  3. It is understood as a mangled version of the name of the Creator.
  4. It is also understood as the name of a creature, which means that they are aware of the "bock". Just like the "cock" in the English example mentioned earlier, "pot" in Dutch and "bleu" in French, the minced name of God drifted towards an existing "replacement" word.

What this means for the Voynich "poxleber":
  1. If you want to read it as "God's liver", it is unlikely to be a cry of anger or frustration: the scribe is swearing a solemn oath by God's liver. Which formulations do we expect when swearing an oath, and what is the scribe's vow?
  2. Swearing oaths like this was clearly done by people in the first half of the 15th century, but apparently frowned upon and mocked by the learned class. Would we expect this uncivilized form written by someone who has clearly had some education?
  3. The spelling "x" over "cks" is likely inspired by this oath-usage, but awareness of the animal was present in the oath. Since spelling was not standardized, would we not rather expect the ingredient in the VM?

What remains: the preceding paragraph also contains some pox, but I am unable to transcribe the Latin. Also, the German phrases appear to be renditions of spoken language and are hard for me to understand fully.

Edit: added MS link.]]> <![CDATA[a, b ,c at the f68r]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5123.html Wed, 10 Dec 2025 20:33:19 +0000 Rafal]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5123.html a, b, c letters at the pages f68r1, f68r2, f68r3 in left top corners of the pages:

Was there any discussion here who could write them?

Are they written with pencil? It would suggest some modern researcher

.png   abc.png (Size: 8.15 KB / Downloads: 154) ]]> a, b, c letters at the pages f68r1, f68r2, f68r3 in left top corners of the pages:

Was there any discussion here who could write them?

Are they written with pencil? It would suggest some modern researcher

.png   abc.png (Size: 8.15 KB / Downloads: 154) ]]> <![CDATA[Finding parallels for Month Names handwriting (Work in Progress)]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-4967.html Mon, 06 Oct 2025 09:05:04 +0000 Koen G]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-4967.html Register or Login to view. script (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). Our conclusions were that the earlier you go in the 15th century, the more likely you are to find people writing like this. The best results were found in central Germany, around Fulda and Mainz, with an "outlier" in Zurich.

We are now hoping to do something similar for the script of the month names. Over the last week, we've been setting up parameters and testing them, in order to come to a workable system that feels like it's selecting for relevant features. 

Here is the spreadsheet: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

We have about 20 entries so far, and the best results sit around 0.60, which is relatively low. Moreover, these are still all over the place, from 1404 to 1494, France to Heidelberg. The challenge appears to be finding the right type of script; the handwriting of the month names is very informal and cursive (all letters connected), while manuscripts tend to be more formal and less connected. So far, we have some success finding cursive hands in charters instead of codices, but there may be better types of sources we haven't thought about yet. 

Seeing that this is more challenging than f116v, we can use all the input we can get. The advantage is that the best matches are yet to be found: if the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. spreadsheet is an indication, the entire top 10 should still be up for grabs. So if you have some time to look through samples, there's a good chance you will make an immediate contribution to our understanding of the manuscript. As with f116v, finders of top samples will of course be credited and mentioned in any later discussions of the results. We need all the help we can get, as different people with different heuristics and skills are able to explore a wider range of sources.

Just post a link here and I or Marco will add them to the sheet. If you would like to work on the sheet directly, just ask and I will give you editing permission. (Ask through the sheet, or PM me the email address).

I tried to set up the sheet in an intuitive way, but please let me know if you have any questions or remarks. Any help is greatly appreciated!]]> Register or Login to view. script (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). Our conclusions were that the earlier you go in the 15th century, the more likely you are to find people writing like this. The best results were found in central Germany, around Fulda and Mainz, with an "outlier" in Zurich.

We are now hoping to do something similar for the script of the month names. Over the last week, we've been setting up parameters and testing them, in order to come to a workable system that feels like it's selecting for relevant features. 

Here is the spreadsheet: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

We have about 20 entries so far, and the best results sit around 0.60, which is relatively low. Moreover, these are still all over the place, from 1404 to 1494, France to Heidelberg. The challenge appears to be finding the right type of script; the handwriting of the month names is very informal and cursive (all letters connected), while manuscripts tend to be more formal and less connected. So far, we have some success finding cursive hands in charters instead of codices, but there may be better types of sources we haven't thought about yet. 

Seeing that this is more challenging than f116v, we can use all the input we can get. The advantage is that the best matches are yet to be found: if the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. spreadsheet is an indication, the entire top 10 should still be up for grabs. So if you have some time to look through samples, there's a good chance you will make an immediate contribution to our understanding of the manuscript. As with f116v, finders of top samples will of course be credited and mentioned in any later discussions of the results. We need all the help we can get, as different people with different heuristics and skills are able to explore a wider range of sources.

Just post a link here and I or Marco will add them to the sheet. If you would like to work on the sheet directly, just ask and I will give you editing permission. (Ask through the sheet, or PM me the email address).

I tried to set up the sheet in an intuitive way, but please let me know if you have any questions or remarks. Any help is greatly appreciated!]]> <![CDATA[[split] Color annotations]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-4948.html Fri, 26 Sep 2025 13:08:08 +0000 MarcoP]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-4948.html (24-09-2025, 02:31 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.that "rot" key was not followed by the Painter, and the letters look rather awkward.


So here is another theory: when the VMS Scribe was copying plant parts from another herbal, which happened to have been created in a German-speaking area, he saw the "rot" color key on the stem of that plant, and --- not speaking German -- thought that it was a Voynichese label that had to be copied too.  So he did, striving to interpret the German letters as Voynichese letters...
Color annotations were sometimes ignored by painters. Examples from the Vermont herbal are discussed You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. That same comment also shows that color annotations on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. were followed. The painters who applied colors were often (usually?) different from the scribes who wrote the annotations, so what the painters did or did not doesn’t tell us much about the scribes, in my opinion.

Considering how small they are, letters in the “rot” annotation seem to me rather ordinary. Maybe one could argue that the downward serif at the top left of ‘r’ is unusually long, e.g. compared with ‘r’ types 62/63 from Derolez’s book. Concluding from this possible tiny difference that the scribe couldn’t read German and that he was trying to hammer the Latin alphabet into Voynichese seem to me two cases of  “non sequitur”.

In my opinion, it is much more likely that the scribe who wrote the color annotation “rot” was a German speaker.


.jpg   __ROT.JPG (Size: 33.39 KB / Downloads: 277) ]]> (24-09-2025, 02:31 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.that "rot" key was not followed by the Painter, and the letters look rather awkward.


So here is another theory: when the VMS Scribe was copying plant parts from another herbal, which happened to have been created in a German-speaking area, he saw the "rot" color key on the stem of that plant, and --- not speaking German -- thought that it was a Voynichese label that had to be copied too.  So he did, striving to interpret the German letters as Voynichese letters...
Color annotations were sometimes ignored by painters. Examples from the Vermont herbal are discussed You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. That same comment also shows that color annotations on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. were followed. The painters who applied colors were often (usually?) different from the scribes who wrote the annotations, so what the painters did or did not doesn’t tell us much about the scribes, in my opinion.

Considering how small they are, letters in the “rot” annotation seem to me rather ordinary. Maybe one could argue that the downward serif at the top left of ‘r’ is unusually long, e.g. compared with ‘r’ types 62/63 from Derolez’s book. Concluding from this possible tiny difference that the scribe couldn’t read German and that he was trying to hammer the Latin alphabet into Voynichese seem to me two cases of  “non sequitur”.

In my opinion, it is much more likely that the scribe who wrote the color annotation “rot” was a German speaker.


.jpg   __ROT.JPG (Size: 33.39 KB / Downloads: 277) ]]>