<![CDATA[The Voynich Ninja - Imagery]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/ Mon, 03 Aug 2026 03:43:32 +0000 MyBB <![CDATA[Are the Rosettes a biblical-themed map?]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5984.html Fri, 31 Jul 2026 15:24:22 +0000 ololololo]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5984.html After looking at them again, I noticed the following: the four Rosettes in the corners of the quadrifolium differ from all the others (including the island) in that they most closely resemble geographical features (a hill on the top left, a city on the top right, a lake on the bottom left, and a second city or temple on the bottom right).
And I thought the following:
"There was an wrong image"
1 - Mount Sinai
2 - Jerusalem
4 - I've always thought that the area above the blue cross was farmland. This may be a depiction of Gosen.
These are the very first associations.

The central Rosettes (by the way, their difference is that they are all symmetrical and "schematic") may have a clear religious meaning. If we consider the central island as a hill (rather than an actual island), it could represent the Heavenly Jerusalem.

What do you think?

.jpg   Снимок экрана 2026-07-31 181428.jpg (Size: 234.38 KB / Downloads: 131)

.jpg   Снимок экрана 2026-07-31 181428.jpg (Size: 177.45 KB / Downloads: 114) ]]> After looking at them again, I noticed the following: the four Rosettes in the corners of the quadrifolium differ from all the others (including the island) in that they most closely resemble geographical features (a hill on the top left, a city on the top right, a lake on the bottom left, and a second city or temple on the bottom right).
And I thought the following:
"There was an wrong image"
1 - Mount Sinai
2 - Jerusalem
4 - I've always thought that the area above the blue cross was farmland. This may be a depiction of Gosen.
These are the very first associations.

The central Rosettes (by the way, their difference is that they are all symmetrical and "schematic") may have a clear religious meaning. If we consider the central island as a hill (rather than an actual island), it could represent the Heavenly Jerusalem.

What do you think?

.jpg   Снимок экрана 2026-07-31 181428.jpg (Size: 234.38 KB / Downloads: 131)

.jpg   Снимок экрана 2026-07-31 181428.jpg (Size: 177.45 KB / Downloads: 114) ]]> <![CDATA[Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn?]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5968.html Wed, 29 Jul 2026 20:00:54 +0000 eggyk]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5968.html
As part of the ongoing zodiac rating/collection project, approximately 230 depictions of Aries (from ~160 sources) have been logged in order to compare them to the VMS Aries symbols. Exciting or interesting examples are... rather scarce.

There are multiple aspects of the VMS symbols that are simply plain missing in the vast majority of Aries depictions. The horns are almost never curved correctly, the body type is more often short and stubby, the tail is often far too long, and the animal is almost never interested in a tree or plant. 

So.. is the VMS aries depiction simply rare?

The Depiction (eating a tree on a rocky slope)

Many of you may be familiar with this example from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.:


.png   image_2026-07-27_173151446.png (Size: 125.59 KB / Downloads: 174)

Well, this depiction (of a creature reaching up onto a tree, or reaching higher, rocky ground) is a semi-common Capricorn depiction. Not Aries. Here are a whole bunch of examples i've come across so far:

.jpg   VMSariesboth.JPG (Size: 25.28 KB / Downloads: 146)

.jpg   capricorns_on_trees.JPG (Size: 93.33 KB / Downloads: 161)

.jpg   capricorns_on_rocky_hills.JPG (Size: 63.39 KB / Downloads: 160)

This is perhaps the best evidence that VMS aries is actually inspired by a depiction of capricorn: the depiction of a creature on a rocky slope, trying to reach for a tree or high ground. 

How can it be Capricorn? It's between Pisces and Taurus!

Examples of this happening

So far, I have come across 2 examples that demonstrate instances where this mix-up / mixing of styles happened: 

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This example (that I just mentioned above) is in the Aries section, but is actually based on capricorn. The goat beard gives this away:

.jpg   aries_with_beard.JPG (Size: 9.83 KB / Downloads: 158)

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This example has aries and capricorn mixed-up: The capricorn is depicted in march, and aries is depicted in december:

.jpg   capricorn_aries_mixup.JPG (Size: 20.94 KB / Downloads: 158)

This was not a binding error; these depictions were indeed on the verso of those months.

So interestingly, the two examples with this capricorn depiction displayed in the "aries section" seem to have different reasons for having happened. One is seemingly a mistake, and the other seems to have been a conscious choice to use the typical capricorn depiction for aries.

Similar designs for aries and capricorns within manuscripts

Quite often, the designs of Aries and Capricorn are rather similar within the same manuscript. Even in cases that capricorn is a sea-goat, the mammal-half is often similar to the Aries within that manuscript. Here are a couple of examples, but there are many more: 


.jpg   capricorn_aries_comparison.JPG (Size: 55.16 KB / Downloads: 145)

Other attributes that suggest a capricorn inspired design

The horns - Horns on Aries entries are very often curled, twisted and bobbly. Capricorn horns are often smooth (not always), and generally a longer version of the shape found in the VMS. 

The tail - Tails are more often small tufts on the capricorn designs, similar to the VMS. The tails on aries designs is more often far longer. 

The body - Capricorns are generally depicted as relatively slim creatures with longer legs, as opposed to the common fluffy, poofy build found in many Aries. 

Common Capricorn attributes missing in the VMS

The Beard - Capricorns are normally depicted with a little goat beard, which is missing in both depictions found in the VMS. However, this is not a universal feature; there's already an example of a beardless example above in this post. But I looked through quickly and found a few:


.jpg   capricorn_beardless.JPG (Size: 24.56 KB / Downloads: 158)

What I'm suggesting

I believe that the design for Aries may have been inspired by a capricorn depiction. This does not necessarily mean that the intended sign IS capricorn, only that the VMS depiction of Aries was inspired by it.  Frankly, the only reason we assume this to be an Aries design is its location between Pisces and Taurus. If we had only these VMS pages in isolation, without Pisces and Taurus, the logical conclusion would not be that they are Aries at all. It would be that they are Capricorn.

The next steps to confirm and research this would be to incorporate capricorn depictions into the rating spreadsheets, rating them alongside the Aries examples to gauge how well they score. This depiction of capricorn -if relevant- is a lead that may produce some valuable hints on where the VMS artist was from, or at least hints on where they were likely not from. My initial tests have shown that mammal capricorns rate quite highly on average, but I'm yet to finalise criteria that would rate them effectively and fairly (and punish them for their capricorn features, like beards). 

Another step is simply to add more manuscripts to the lists, but that takes time Smile]]>
As part of the ongoing zodiac rating/collection project, approximately 230 depictions of Aries (from ~160 sources) have been logged in order to compare them to the VMS Aries symbols. Exciting or interesting examples are... rather scarce.

There are multiple aspects of the VMS symbols that are simply plain missing in the vast majority of Aries depictions. The horns are almost never curved correctly, the body type is more often short and stubby, the tail is often far too long, and the animal is almost never interested in a tree or plant. 

So.. is the VMS aries depiction simply rare?

The Depiction (eating a tree on a rocky slope)

Many of you may be familiar with this example from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.:


.png   image_2026-07-27_173151446.png (Size: 125.59 KB / Downloads: 174)

Well, this depiction (of a creature reaching up onto a tree, or reaching higher, rocky ground) is a semi-common Capricorn depiction. Not Aries. Here are a whole bunch of examples i've come across so far:

.jpg   VMSariesboth.JPG (Size: 25.28 KB / Downloads: 146)

.jpg   capricorns_on_trees.JPG (Size: 93.33 KB / Downloads: 161)

.jpg   capricorns_on_rocky_hills.JPG (Size: 63.39 KB / Downloads: 160)

This is perhaps the best evidence that VMS aries is actually inspired by a depiction of capricorn: the depiction of a creature on a rocky slope, trying to reach for a tree or high ground. 

How can it be Capricorn? It's between Pisces and Taurus!

Examples of this happening

So far, I have come across 2 examples that demonstrate instances where this mix-up / mixing of styles happened: 

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
This example (that I just mentioned above) is in the Aries section, but is actually based on capricorn. The goat beard gives this away:

.jpg   aries_with_beard.JPG (Size: 9.83 KB / Downloads: 158)

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
This example has aries and capricorn mixed-up: The capricorn is depicted in march, and aries is depicted in december:

.jpg   capricorn_aries_mixup.JPG (Size: 20.94 KB / Downloads: 158)

This was not a binding error; these depictions were indeed on the verso of those months.

So interestingly, the two examples with this capricorn depiction displayed in the "aries section" seem to have different reasons for having happened. One is seemingly a mistake, and the other seems to have been a conscious choice to use the typical capricorn depiction for aries.

Similar designs for aries and capricorns within manuscripts

Quite often, the designs of Aries and Capricorn are rather similar within the same manuscript. Even in cases that capricorn is a sea-goat, the mammal-half is often similar to the Aries within that manuscript. Here are a couple of examples, but there are many more: 


.jpg   capricorn_aries_comparison.JPG (Size: 55.16 KB / Downloads: 145)

Other attributes that suggest a capricorn inspired design

The horns - Horns on Aries entries are very often curled, twisted and bobbly. Capricorn horns are often smooth (not always), and generally a longer version of the shape found in the VMS. 

The tail - Tails are more often small tufts on the capricorn designs, similar to the VMS. The tails on aries designs is more often far longer. 

The body - Capricorns are generally depicted as relatively slim creatures with longer legs, as opposed to the common fluffy, poofy build found in many Aries. 

Common Capricorn attributes missing in the VMS

The Beard - Capricorns are normally depicted with a little goat beard, which is missing in both depictions found in the VMS. However, this is not a universal feature; there's already an example of a beardless example above in this post. But I looked through quickly and found a few:


.jpg   capricorn_beardless.JPG (Size: 24.56 KB / Downloads: 158)

What I'm suggesting

I believe that the design for Aries may have been inspired by a capricorn depiction. This does not necessarily mean that the intended sign IS capricorn, only that the VMS depiction of Aries was inspired by it.  Frankly, the only reason we assume this to be an Aries design is its location between Pisces and Taurus. If we had only these VMS pages in isolation, without Pisces and Taurus, the logical conclusion would not be that they are Aries at all. It would be that they are Capricorn.

The next steps to confirm and research this would be to incorporate capricorn depictions into the rating spreadsheets, rating them alongside the Aries examples to gauge how well they score. This depiction of capricorn -if relevant- is a lead that may produce some valuable hints on where the VMS artist was from, or at least hints on where they were likely not from. My initial tests have shown that mammal capricorns rate quite highly on average, but I'm yet to finalise criteria that would rate them effectively and fairly (and punish them for their capricorn features, like beards). 

Another step is simply to add more manuscripts to the lists, but that takes time Smile]]> <![CDATA[Bonmont Psalter, Besançon. Bibliothèque municipale, Ms. 54]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5979.html Wed, 29 Jul 2026 15:56:48 +0000 Koen G]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5979.html Register or Login to view., also known as the Bonmont Psalter, which I would like to point out as potentially relevant. The usual caveat: I don't recall discussion of this MS, but this may be classic Voynich amnesia.

Second caveat: this MS is relatively early for our timeframe, made in the middle of the 13th century (Upper Rhine Region). I see it as an interesting node in a network rather than a potential direct source.

The interesting section is in the beginning: the MS begins with a calendar, certainly derived from a different source than the psalter part. I will list some things.

1. "Star" with each Sign

This one should immediately stand out to anyone interested in the Voynich Zodiac sequence. Each of the signs is shown semi-interacting with a big, spiked, faced "star". From the accompanying text, it is immediately clear that this heavenly body represents the Sun: in this case "sol in Leonem". The addition of the sun is thus perfectly logical: each sign is active while the sun passes through it. 


.jpg   Untitled-1.jpg (Size: 190.08 KB / Downloads: 136)

Did the VM stars in Pisces, Virgo and Scorpio derive from such tradition? Quite possibly, in my opinion, but then completely bastardized. They no longer stand out as suns, and Pisces has two of them. So if the VM nonsense derived from a "Sun in Sign" tradition, its originally sensible meaning was no longer followed.

2. Some stylistics

As said, the Bonmont Psalter and the VM are almost two centuries apart, and their styles clearly belong to different periods. If there is any connection, I believe we must imagine additional nodes between them. Still, there are some particularities worth pointing out. 

First, all suns have full heads inside, a parallel we have had trouble finding in late medieval sources. Those prefer the smiley face: a mouth, nose and eyes, while the VM, early sources and some renaissance artists sometimes complete the sun-face with hair and a jawline. In the latter case, it feels like a personification is imposed on the celestial body. You can see this in Leo posted above, and different faces/angles in the Libra and Sagittarius suns below.


.jpg   Untitled-2.jpg (Size: 394.18 KB / Downloads: 136)

I also noted some possibly coincidental likeness between the style of drawing the outer rays with dotted triangles (central Rosette). And the way the libra sun splits an asterisked field with its twelve red, triangular rays.

3. Taurus "basket"

The main struggle with finding parallels for Taurus is the apparent feeding contraption both bulls are accompanied by. The wicker pattern suggests that the VM artist did see these as mangers of some sort. The green paint seems out of place since I presume mangers would be filled with hay during the winter months. Which brings us to the main reason you won't find any bulls eating from mangers in calendars: they would just go out to pasture. And either way, mangers would not look like this. 

(Notice also that the VM artist shoved trees in Aries faces, equally inappropriately; sheep seek out vegetation that grows low to the ground, like grass and herbs). 

What if the awkward, beige cylinder was something else entirely in the source? In the Bonmont Psalter, Taurus shares the space with a rare monthly labor, which appears to me like grafting. The root stem has been prepared, and the man appears to be preparing a twig for attachment. So imagine a Taurus in such a grafting (or pruning?) scene: the bull might be close enough to a cylinder to make it look like a weird feeder to the inexperienced artist.


.jpg   Untitled-3.jpg (Size: 373.03 KB / Downloads: 137)

In short, I think this manuscript's calendar has some potential to, given one or two in-between steps and modernization of some signs, explain some of the most bizarre things we see in the VM Zodiac. Or it could all be coincidental.]]> Register or Login to view., also known as the Bonmont Psalter, which I would like to point out as potentially relevant. The usual caveat: I don't recall discussion of this MS, but this may be classic Voynich amnesia.

Second caveat: this MS is relatively early for our timeframe, made in the middle of the 13th century (Upper Rhine Region). I see it as an interesting node in a network rather than a potential direct source.

The interesting section is in the beginning: the MS begins with a calendar, certainly derived from a different source than the psalter part. I will list some things.

1. "Star" with each Sign

This one should immediately stand out to anyone interested in the Voynich Zodiac sequence. Each of the signs is shown semi-interacting with a big, spiked, faced "star". From the accompanying text, it is immediately clear that this heavenly body represents the Sun: in this case "sol in Leonem". The addition of the sun is thus perfectly logical: each sign is active while the sun passes through it. 


.jpg   Untitled-1.jpg (Size: 190.08 KB / Downloads: 136)

Did the VM stars in Pisces, Virgo and Scorpio derive from such tradition? Quite possibly, in my opinion, but then completely bastardized. They no longer stand out as suns, and Pisces has two of them. So if the VM nonsense derived from a "Sun in Sign" tradition, its originally sensible meaning was no longer followed.

2. Some stylistics

As said, the Bonmont Psalter and the VM are almost two centuries apart, and their styles clearly belong to different periods. If there is any connection, I believe we must imagine additional nodes between them. Still, there are some particularities worth pointing out. 

First, all suns have full heads inside, a parallel we have had trouble finding in late medieval sources. Those prefer the smiley face: a mouth, nose and eyes, while the VM, early sources and some renaissance artists sometimes complete the sun-face with hair and a jawline. In the latter case, it feels like a personification is imposed on the celestial body. You can see this in Leo posted above, and different faces/angles in the Libra and Sagittarius suns below.


.jpg   Untitled-2.jpg (Size: 394.18 KB / Downloads: 136)

I also noted some possibly coincidental likeness between the style of drawing the outer rays with dotted triangles (central Rosette). And the way the libra sun splits an asterisked field with its twelve red, triangular rays.

3. Taurus "basket"

The main struggle with finding parallels for Taurus is the apparent feeding contraption both bulls are accompanied by. The wicker pattern suggests that the VM artist did see these as mangers of some sort. The green paint seems out of place since I presume mangers would be filled with hay during the winter months. Which brings us to the main reason you won't find any bulls eating from mangers in calendars: they would just go out to pasture. And either way, mangers would not look like this. 

(Notice also that the VM artist shoved trees in Aries faces, equally inappropriately; sheep seek out vegetation that grows low to the ground, like grass and herbs). 

What if the awkward, beige cylinder was something else entirely in the source? In the Bonmont Psalter, Taurus shares the space with a rare monthly labor, which appears to me like grafting. The root stem has been prepared, and the man appears to be preparing a twig for attachment. So imagine a Taurus in such a grafting (or pruning?) scene: the bull might be close enough to a cylinder to make it look like a weird feeder to the inexperienced artist.


.jpg   Untitled-3.jpg (Size: 373.03 KB / Downloads: 137)

In short, I think this manuscript's calendar has some potential to, given one or two in-between steps and modernization of some signs, explain some of the most bizarre things we see in the VM Zodiac. Or it could all be coincidental.]]> <![CDATA[French herbal ms.MaS 116]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5971.html Mon, 27 Jul 2026 20:28:21 +0000 DG97EEB]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5971.html Register or Login to view.

1365-1375 (vers 1370) probably from Padua

I did the usual searches but nothing came up..

3 dragons and a dinosaur (?)

And some Swallowtail Merlons

.jpg   751062305_Ms_Mas_0116_0046_680x510.jpg (Size: 59.76 KB / Downloads: 172)

.jpg   751062305_Ms_Mas_0116_0069_680x510.jpg (Size: 63.47 KB / Downloads: 169)

.jpg   751062305_Ms_Mas_0116_0070_680x510.jpg (Size: 60.04 KB / Downloads: 166)

.jpg   751062305_Ms_Mas_0116_0091_680x510.jpg (Size: 63.31 KB / Downloads: 165)

.jpg   751062305_Ms_Mas_0116_0182_680x510.jpg (Size: 60.92 KB / Downloads: 163) ]]> Register or Login to view.

1365-1375 (vers 1370) probably from Padua

I did the usual searches but nothing came up..

3 dragons and a dinosaur (?)

And some Swallowtail Merlons

.jpg   751062305_Ms_Mas_0116_0046_680x510.jpg (Size: 59.76 KB / Downloads: 172)

.jpg   751062305_Ms_Mas_0116_0069_680x510.jpg (Size: 63.47 KB / Downloads: 169)

.jpg   751062305_Ms_Mas_0116_0070_680x510.jpg (Size: 60.04 KB / Downloads: 166)

.jpg   751062305_Ms_Mas_0116_0091_680x510.jpg (Size: 63.31 KB / Downloads: 165)

.jpg   751062305_Ms_Mas_0116_0182_680x510.jpg (Size: 60.92 KB / Downloads: 163) ]]> <![CDATA[Heraldry: Comet]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5952.html Fri, 24 Jul 2026 00:59:19 +0000 R. Sale]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5952.html
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?????]]>
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?????]]> <![CDATA[Reiner Musterbuch - f25v dragon]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5928.html Thu, 16 Jul 2026 20:39:28 +0000 Dracaena]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5928.html

.jpg   ReinerMusterbuch_Dragon1.jpg (Size: 766.85 KB / Downloads: 104)
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The foliate tail, the delineation line along the wing, ears, biting posture, 3 toes.. I just want to leave this here for comparison to other depictions that were posted in this forum.

The Musterbuch was already discussed here regarding the celestial faces: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

I also want to draw your attention to the "scorpio templates" 
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Full digitization: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.]]>

.jpg   ReinerMusterbuch_Dragon1.jpg (Size: 766.85 KB / Downloads: 104)
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The foliate tail, the delineation line along the wing, ears, biting posture, 3 toes.. I just want to leave this here for comparison to other depictions that were posted in this forum.

The Musterbuch was already discussed here regarding the celestial faces: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

I also want to draw your attention to the "scorpio templates" 
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Full digitization: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.]]> <![CDATA[Possible T and O map]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5922.html Tue, 14 Jul 2026 00:19:49 +0000 NisabaAlmah]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5922.html Mappa mundi. Interestingly the word in the spot that you would expect to be labeled Africa, has the same number of letters.

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However, the space you would expect to say Europa has one too many letters...unless that weird symbol with an extra long tail isn't actually a letter.

The only thing is, if that assumption is made then the matching letters between the words don't match, but if it's some kind of marching cipher that we might not expect them to. Though it's hard to imagine such a cipher being used on a text that has words so haphazardly strewn about, unless there's some kind of marking added to tell you where to start...like an extra letter that's not a letter marking giving you a clue.

Of course there's nothing definitive but just some thoughts I had while flipping through the pages and thought "hold up I've seen that before", which happens to me a lot while browsing the document but when I start trying to match the letters to the expected words it all seems to fall apart. There's a lot of classical medieval occult imagery throughout that anyone who's studied the grimoires will immediately recognize, but it never seems to match up with any established lineage even if you go in odd directions like the Arabic Picatrix.]]> Mappa mundi. Interestingly the word in the spot that you would expect to be labeled Africa, has the same number of letters.

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However, the space you would expect to say Europa has one too many letters...unless that weird symbol with an extra long tail isn't actually a letter.

The only thing is, if that assumption is made then the matching letters between the words don't match, but if it's some kind of marching cipher that we might not expect them to. Though it's hard to imagine such a cipher being used on a text that has words so haphazardly strewn about, unless there's some kind of marking added to tell you where to start...like an extra letter that's not a letter marking giving you a clue.

Of course there's nothing definitive but just some thoughts I had while flipping through the pages and thought "hold up I've seen that before", which happens to me a lot while browsing the document but when I start trying to match the letters to the expected words it all seems to fall apart. There's a lot of classical medieval occult imagery throughout that anyone who's studied the grimoires will immediately recognize, but it never seems to match up with any established lineage even if you go in odd directions like the Arabic Picatrix.]]> <![CDATA[A turtle-shelled dragon]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5914.html Sun, 12 Jul 2026 16:18:22 +0000 Dracaena]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5914.html The small "dragon" at the root of the plant on folio 25v is often dismissed as a doodle. Other investigators have noticed the shell of the the animal on f25v, which lead to speculations of it being an armadillo or a pangolin. However, is there an actual turtle-shelled dragon in european medieval tradition? Indeed, there is. This could be a depiction of the Tarasque, the famous (female) monster of Saint Martha associated with Tarascon in Provence.

.jpg   Voynich_Manuscript_(50)_detail_((dragon)).jpg (Size: 78.47 KB / Downloads: 170)
I am are not claiming this proves a Provençal origin for the Voynich, but it may be one more small piece of evidence worth considering. Depictions of Tarasque with turtle shell span along the Rhône and into the western Alps.
A more detailed writeup here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
]]> The small "dragon" at the root of the plant on folio 25v is often dismissed as a doodle. Other investigators have noticed the shell of the the animal on f25v, which lead to speculations of it being an armadillo or a pangolin. However, is there an actual turtle-shelled dragon in european medieval tradition? Indeed, there is. This could be a depiction of the Tarasque, the famous (female) monster of Saint Martha associated with Tarascon in Provence.

.jpg   Voynich_Manuscript_(50)_detail_((dragon)).jpg (Size: 78.47 KB / Downloads: 170)
I am are not claiming this proves a Provençal origin for the Voynich, but it may be one more small piece of evidence worth considering. Depictions of Tarasque with turtle shell span along the Rhône and into the western Alps.
A more detailed writeup here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
]]> <![CDATA[Did Voynich manuscript illustrator never see women breasts?]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5909.html Sun, 12 Jul 2026 06:55:18 +0000 Jimmy123]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5909.html
Can we conclude from this something about that person?

  1. The person was a child artist,
  2. The person was intentional celibate, like hermit,
  3. The person was young apprentice.

It is not possible that someone who has seen naked women will draw something so badly.]]>
Can we conclude from this something about that person?

  1. The person was a child artist,
  2. The person was intentional celibate, like hermit,
  3. The person was young apprentice.

It is not possible that someone who has seen naked women will draw something so badly.]]> <![CDATA[[Zodiac Rating] VIRGO]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5885.html Mon, 06 Jul 2026 13:56:02 +0000 Koen G]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5885.html
As you may recall, we started off with Taurus: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 
Eggyk will also transfer this sheet into a new, standard layout. 

So now, let's discuss which features should be tracked for Virgo. Here is the VM Virgo for reference:


.jpg   Untitled-7.jpg (Size: 107.74 KB / Downloads: 262)

Some initial ideas, all subject to change depending on your input and a trial run:
  • Headgear: how do we describe this hat? Should "wearing hat" and the type of hat be separate categories?
  • Blue dress: the main color of the clothing is blue. 
  • Wide open sleeves at wrist/forearm level
  • Dagged edges of wide sleeves (we can include lace finish here as well, anything that provides a wavy or jagged edge).
  • Line at wrist level indicates undergarment with tighter sleeves (only if there is a wide-sleeved overgarment, this combination is the salient feature)
  • double line at the neck?
  • short hair style?
  • holding flower? Instances where she holds a star deserve special attention, but holding a flower seems like the most common approximation. The thing that she's holding could even be taken as a flower.
  • Standing on outdoor terrain (I wouldn't specify too much here)
  • Something about the width of the dress at the bottom? How to best describe this? Her dress flares up behind her to shoulder level. Is this due to the circular arrangement? This may become clear after a trial run.
  • Facing left
  • Both hands extended forwards? Not sure if this may be useful.

Things to ignore: 
  • I have always interpreted her as standing, but some think she's sitting, so the overall pose may be ambiguous, I wouldn't include this.
  • Her pose does not allow us to see whether the garment is belted.

Please let me know if I missed anything important, or if you would omit or change anything.]]>
As you may recall, we started off with Taurus: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 
Eggyk will also transfer this sheet into a new, standard layout. 

So now, let's discuss which features should be tracked for Virgo. Here is the VM Virgo for reference:


.jpg   Untitled-7.jpg (Size: 107.74 KB / Downloads: 262)

Some initial ideas, all subject to change depending on your input and a trial run:
  • Headgear: how do we describe this hat? Should "wearing hat" and the type of hat be separate categories?
  • Blue dress: the main color of the clothing is blue. 
  • Wide open sleeves at wrist/forearm level
  • Dagged edges of wide sleeves (we can include lace finish here as well, anything that provides a wavy or jagged edge).
  • Line at wrist level indicates undergarment with tighter sleeves (only if there is a wide-sleeved overgarment, this combination is the salient feature)
  • double line at the neck?
  • short hair style?
  • holding flower? Instances where she holds a star deserve special attention, but holding a flower seems like the most common approximation. The thing that she's holding could even be taken as a flower.
  • Standing on outdoor terrain (I wouldn't specify too much here)
  • Something about the width of the dress at the bottom? How to best describe this? Her dress flares up behind her to shoulder level. Is this due to the circular arrangement? This may become clear after a trial run.
  • Facing left
  • Both hands extended forwards? Not sure if this may be useful.

Things to ignore: 
  • I have always interpreted her as standing, but some think she's sitting, so the overall pose may be ambiguous, I wouldn't include this.
  • Her pose does not allow us to see whether the garment is belted.

Please let me know if I missed anything important, or if you would omit or change anything.]]> <![CDATA[Voynich style herbs+text wrapping: BSB Cgm 728]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5883.html Sun, 05 Jul 2026 17:03:25 +0000 eggyk]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5883.html
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
1475-1500AD
Germany SE / Austria
Southern Bavaria (based on southern bavarian dialect)
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The section from 71v-115r (scans 148-236) contains badly drawn herbs which are terribly coloured in. The text often wraps around the pictures, similar to the VMS.

(It also has an abrelenn and augst, but that's not very relevant)


.png   image_2026-07-05_185620652.png (Size: 458.64 KB / Downloads: 216)
.png   image_2026-07-05_185659147.png (Size: 488.22 KB / Downloads: 215)

.png   image_2026-07-05_185836306.png (Size: 494.51 KB / Downloads: 216)
.png   image_2026-07-05_185949251.png (Size: 510.18 KB / Downloads: 216) ]]>
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
1475-1500AD
Germany SE / Austria
Southern Bavaria (based on southern bavarian dialect)
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

The section from 71v-115r (scans 148-236) contains badly drawn herbs which are terribly coloured in. The text often wraps around the pictures, similar to the VMS.

(It also has an abrelenn and augst, but that's not very relevant)


.png   image_2026-07-05_185620652.png (Size: 458.64 KB / Downloads: 216)
.png   image_2026-07-05_185659147.png (Size: 488.22 KB / Downloads: 215)

.png   image_2026-07-05_185836306.png (Size: 494.51 KB / Downloads: 216)
.png   image_2026-07-05_185949251.png (Size: 510.18 KB / Downloads: 216) ]]> <![CDATA[Zodiac Imagery: Manuscript Collection/Discussion]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5874.html Sun, 05 Jul 2026 13:17:33 +0000 eggyk]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5874.html
As many of the manuscripts being logged for the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. thread include calendars, I have created a sheet to log all of the instances of zodiac imagery within the manuscripts that have been found (zodiacs are often found near calendars). It was becoming more and more difficult to find and remember which entries were interesting as the list grew. My hope is to use this thread as a home base for myself and others who wish to collate, compare and discuss that imagery and their sequencing in general. I hope that with enough sequences, we may be able to start talking statistically about the general dating and location of the sequence based on general trends, similar to what has begun to happen with the month names. 

More specifically, this thread is about the generalisation and categorisation of sequences and styles across digitised manuscripts in order to come to a better understanding of what was standard, along with when/where. It is also to permanently catalogue the exact sources along with their context (the whole sequence, the use case, the location, the language, the handwriting, connected works), so that future efforts may be able to analyse them. Hopefully, we will be able to compare those trends and patterns (if they exist) with the sequence found in the VMS, perhaps quantitatively, probably subjectively.

Finding connected works or patterns may also help in locating more examples. For instance, if we know voynichy lions accompany works on bloodletting, searching out bloodletting works may lead us to voynichy lions. 

I'm aware that many previous threads discussing various aspects of the VMS zodiacs exist like You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and that previous collections of imagery exist. The issue is that many/most of the sources for the imagery in those threads are no longer easily findable, the data sometimes not easily usable (or full of dead links), often with discussions that are now years untouched. This spreadsheet and thread are intended as a continuation of that work, while collecting and archiving the sources in a different way.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The sheet
Link: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.


The sheet 'Imagery Categorisation' contains headers for each zodiac symbol, with colour codes to show which symbols are within each source. There are also headers for 'labours of the months', 'planetary imagery' (normally the planets personified and depicted with zodiac symbols), and a catch all 'other' for other interesting/relevant imagery.

Unlike the month names, this sheet does not set out to score the sequences (yet), only to collect them. If we can work out a way in the future to score the "voynichy-ness" of the sequences, we can use the data collected here to do so. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This thread can also serve as a place for people to post/cite instances of medieval zodiac imagery, especially in cases where the imagery is not interesting enough on its own to merit a seperate thread. So please feel free to post examples, preferably including the following info so they can be added easily:

-Title + Manuscript reference/number
-Link(s)
-Contents (what is in the source and where)

For searchability, detailed references are better - "Universitätsbibliothek Leipzig, Ms 34" instead of just "Ms 34".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Understandably, many of the manuscript examples in this spreadsheet were already seperately found numerous times, and their zodiac imagery posted across those previous threads. If anyone still has repositories of zodiac imagery and are happy for me to try and log them in this way (preferably with the original manuscript source or a potential way to find it),  please share! I am happy to go through and do some digging on dates, locations and other info for the manuscripts. And again, I apologise that this will almost certainly cover already covered ground at various points; I appreciate a lot of work has been done already. 

As of the writing of this post, there are only ~60 manuscripts containing zodiac imagery logged on the spreadsheet out of the ~350 entries i've gone through so far. There are currently around another 200 for me to go through and check which I will do over the next day or so.  Smile]]>
As many of the manuscripts being logged for the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. thread include calendars, I have created a sheet to log all of the instances of zodiac imagery within the manuscripts that have been found (zodiacs are often found near calendars). It was becoming more and more difficult to find and remember which entries were interesting as the list grew. My hope is to use this thread as a home base for myself and others who wish to collate, compare and discuss that imagery and their sequencing in general. I hope that with enough sequences, we may be able to start talking statistically about the general dating and location of the sequence based on general trends, similar to what has begun to happen with the month names. 

More specifically, this thread is about the generalisation and categorisation of sequences and styles across digitised manuscripts in order to come to a better understanding of what was standard, along with when/where. It is also to permanently catalogue the exact sources along with their context (the whole sequence, the use case, the location, the language, the handwriting, connected works), so that future efforts may be able to analyse them. Hopefully, we will be able to compare those trends and patterns (if they exist) with the sequence found in the VMS, perhaps quantitatively, probably subjectively.

Finding connected works or patterns may also help in locating more examples. For instance, if we know voynichy lions accompany works on bloodletting, searching out bloodletting works may lead us to voynichy lions. 

I'm aware that many previous threads discussing various aspects of the VMS zodiacs exist like You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and that previous collections of imagery exist. The issue is that many/most of the sources for the imagery in those threads are no longer easily findable, the data sometimes not easily usable (or full of dead links), often with discussions that are now years untouched. This spreadsheet and thread are intended as a continuation of that work, while collecting and archiving the sources in a different way.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The sheet
Link: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.


The sheet 'Imagery Categorisation' contains headers for each zodiac symbol, with colour codes to show which symbols are within each source. There are also headers for 'labours of the months', 'planetary imagery' (normally the planets personified and depicted with zodiac symbols), and a catch all 'other' for other interesting/relevant imagery.

Unlike the month names, this sheet does not set out to score the sequences (yet), only to collect them. If we can work out a way in the future to score the "voynichy-ness" of the sequences, we can use the data collected here to do so. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This thread can also serve as a place for people to post/cite instances of medieval zodiac imagery, especially in cases where the imagery is not interesting enough on its own to merit a seperate thread. So please feel free to post examples, preferably including the following info so they can be added easily:

-Title + Manuscript reference/number
-Link(s)
-Contents (what is in the source and where)

For searchability, detailed references are better - "Universitätsbibliothek Leipzig, Ms 34" instead of just "Ms 34".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Understandably, many of the manuscript examples in this spreadsheet were already seperately found numerous times, and their zodiac imagery posted across those previous threads. If anyone still has repositories of zodiac imagery and are happy for me to try and log them in this way (preferably with the original manuscript source or a potential way to find it),  please share! I am happy to go through and do some digging on dates, locations and other info for the manuscripts. And again, I apologise that this will almost certainly cover already covered ground at various points; I appreciate a lot of work has been done already. 

As of the writing of this post, there are only ~60 manuscripts containing zodiac imagery logged on the spreadsheet out of the ~350 entries i've gone through so far. There are currently around another 200 for me to go through and check which I will do over the next day or so.  Smile]]> <![CDATA[Influence of Parisian Sources]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5841.html Sun, 21 Jun 2026 21:37:01 +0000 R. Sale]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5841.html
BNF Fr. 565, the posthumous 'Oresme' cosmos, with a very simplified structure without any planets and with 43 undulations in its elaborate, scallop-shell cloud band. Dated c. 1410, belonged to the Duke of Berry.

Harley 334, an even more posthumous 'de Metz' version of cosmic illustrations, lacking the elaborate cosmic boundary, but has a mermaid with four "companions". Dated second quarter of 15th C.

Morgan M.133, The Berry Apocalypse, which has examples where a plain nebuly line is used as a cosmic boundary - as is seen in the VMs cosmos. Dated 1415, belonged to the Duke of Berry (d. 1416).
 
Harley 4431, the Book of the Queen, the illustration of the nine Muses bathing in an arcaded fountain. Other versions show nine ladies, but the tub / fountain is different. In the VMs, the only pool with nine women is curvy, and only arcaded on the distal portion. Dated 1410-1414.

Several Parisian sources depicting fillet-type headbands comparable to VMs f67v1. 

UBH Cod.Sal.IXa   Missale Parisciense  Dated 1400.

MET 54.1.1 Belles Heures  Dated 1405-1408, belonged to the Duke of Berry.

BGE Ms. fr. 190/1 Des cas des noble hommes et femmes. Dated 1410, belonged to the Duke of Berry.

Harley 4431, the Book of the Queen  Dated 1410-1414.]]>
BNF Fr. 565, the posthumous 'Oresme' cosmos, with a very simplified structure without any planets and with 43 undulations in its elaborate, scallop-shell cloud band. Dated c. 1410, belonged to the Duke of Berry.

Harley 334, an even more posthumous 'de Metz' version of cosmic illustrations, lacking the elaborate cosmic boundary, but has a mermaid with four "companions". Dated second quarter of 15th C.

Morgan M.133, The Berry Apocalypse, which has examples where a plain nebuly line is used as a cosmic boundary - as is seen in the VMs cosmos. Dated 1415, belonged to the Duke of Berry (d. 1416).
 
Harley 4431, the Book of the Queen, the illustration of the nine Muses bathing in an arcaded fountain. Other versions show nine ladies, but the tub / fountain is different. In the VMs, the only pool with nine women is curvy, and only arcaded on the distal portion. Dated 1410-1414.

Several Parisian sources depicting fillet-type headbands comparable to VMs f67v1. 

UBH Cod.Sal.IXa   Missale Parisciense  Dated 1400.

MET 54.1.1 Belles Heures  Dated 1405-1408, belonged to the Duke of Berry.

BGE Ms. fr. 190/1 Des cas des noble hommes et femmes. Dated 1410, belonged to the Duke of Berry.

Harley 4431, the Book of the Queen  Dated 1410-1414.]]> <![CDATA[A possible origin of f57v?]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5840.html Sun, 21 Jun 2026 20:27:31 +0000 JustAnotherTheory]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5840.html Register or Login to view. in the VMS might be inspired by an Occitan love song? 


.png   123.png (Size: 176.51 KB / Downloads: 124)

Here is a comparison of the folio with different copies of the Le Breviari d’amor de Matfre Ermengaud from the 13th century.



.png   321321.png (Size: 986.12 KB / Downloads: 124)

As you can see, 4 figures pointing to each other. Several writing in the geometric areas between the people, and around them as well, can be seen too.

What do you think?]]> Register or Login to view. in the VMS might be inspired by an Occitan love song? 


.png   123.png (Size: 176.51 KB / Downloads: 124)

Here is a comparison of the folio with different copies of the Le Breviari d’amor de Matfre Ermengaud from the 13th century.



.png   321321.png (Size: 986.12 KB / Downloads: 124)

As you can see, 4 figures pointing to each other. Several writing in the geometric areas between the people, and around them as well, can be seen too.

What do you think?]]> <![CDATA[Erbario LSJ 419]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5836.html Sun, 21 Jun 2026 08:23:48 +0000 JustAnotherTheory]]> https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5836.html
Here is a full scan on archive.org: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.


.png   011111.png (Size: 995.64 KB / Downloads: 290)

What do you think?]]>
Here is a full scan on archive.org: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.


.png   011111.png (Size: 995.64 KB / Downloads: 290)

What do you think?]]>