<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<rss version="2.0" xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/" xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/">
	<channel>
		<title><![CDATA[The Voynich Ninja - All Forums]]></title>
		<link>https://www.voynich.ninja/</link>
		<description><![CDATA[The Voynich Ninja - https://www.voynich.ninja]]></description>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2026 17:11:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<generator>MyBB</generator>
		<item>
			<title><![CDATA[The fifth gallow?]]></title>
			<link>https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5887.html</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2026 16:10:48 +0000</pubDate>
			<dc:creator><![CDATA[<a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=profile&uid=3690">ololololo</a>]]></dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5887.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[This unique symbol appears in the text several times, but it seems to me that given this number of appearances, it can't be called "unique".<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="JPG Image" border="0" alt=".jpg" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16388" target="_blank" title="">36.jpg</a> (Size: 12.74 KB / Downloads: 21)
<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="JPG Image" border="0" alt=".jpg" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16389" target="_blank" title="">47.jpg</a> (Size: 26.03 KB / Downloads: 20)
<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="JPG Image" border="0" alt=".jpg" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16390" target="_blank" title="">3.jpg</a> (Size: 24.48 KB / Downloads: 20)
<br />
<br />
<br />
There were also his appearances in botany, but I couldn't find them. Most often, there is no additional loop (as in the first two screenshots). <br />
Outwardly, it looks vaguely like an f with a second leg, but I think that's not the case, because we already have an f with a second leg:<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="JPG Image" border="0" alt=".jpg" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16391" target="_blank" title="">Снимок экрана 2026-07-07 191018.jpg</a> (Size: 27.6 KB / Downloads: 21)
<br />
<br />
<span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">What do you think?</span>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[This unique symbol appears in the text several times, but it seems to me that given this number of appearances, it can't be called "unique".<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="JPG Image" border="0" alt=".jpg" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16388" target="_blank" title="">36.jpg</a> (Size: 12.74 KB / Downloads: 21)
<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="JPG Image" border="0" alt=".jpg" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16389" target="_blank" title="">47.jpg</a> (Size: 26.03 KB / Downloads: 20)
<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="JPG Image" border="0" alt=".jpg" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16390" target="_blank" title="">3.jpg</a> (Size: 24.48 KB / Downloads: 20)
<br />
<br />
<br />
There were also his appearances in botany, but I couldn't find them. Most often, there is no additional loop (as in the first two screenshots). <br />
Outwardly, it looks vaguely like an f with a second leg, but I think that's not the case, because we already have an f with a second leg:<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="JPG Image" border="0" alt=".jpg" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16391" target="_blank" title="">Снимок экрана 2026-07-07 191018.jpg</a> (Size: 27.6 KB / Downloads: 21)
<br />
<br />
<span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">What do you think?</span>]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
		<item>
			<title><![CDATA[[Zodiac Rating] VIRGO]]></title>
			<link>https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5885.html</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2026 13:56:02 +0000</pubDate>
			<dc:creator><![CDATA[<a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=profile&uid=68">Koen G</a>]]></dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5885.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[Eggyk volunteered to take over managing the excel sheets for Zodiac imagery rating, which I am very grateful for. <br />
<br />
As you may recall, we started off with Taurus: You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view. <br />
Eggyk will also transfer this sheet into a new, standard layout. <br />
<br />
So now, let's discuss which features should be tracked for Virgo. Here is the VM Virgo for reference:<br />
<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="JPG Image" border="0" alt=".jpg" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16365" target="_blank" title="">Untitled-7.jpg</a> (Size: 107.74 KB / Downloads: 152)
<br />
<br />
Some initial ideas, all subject to change depending on your input and a trial run:<ul class="mycode_list"><li>Headgear: how do we describe this hat? Should "wearing hat" and the type of hat be separate categories?<br />
</li>
<li>Blue dress: the main color of the clothing is blue. <br />
</li>
<li>Wide open sleeves at wrist/forearm level<br />
</li>
<li>Dagged edges of wide sleeves (we can include lace finish here as well, anything that provides a wavy or jagged edge).<br />
</li>
<li>Line at wrist level indicates undergarment with tighter sleeves (only if there is a wide-sleeved overgarment, this combination is the salient feature)<br />
</li>
<li>double line at the neck?<br />
</li>
<li>short hair style?<br />
</li>
<li>holding flower? Instances where she holds a star deserve special attention, but holding a flower seems like the most common approximation. The thing that she's holding could even be taken as a flower.<br />
</li>
<li>Standing on outdoor terrain (I wouldn't specify too much here)<br />
</li>
<li>Something about the width of the dress at the bottom? How to best describe this? Her dress flares up behind her to shoulder level. Is this due to the circular arrangement? This may become clear after a trial run.<br />
</li>
<li>Facing left<br />
</li>
<li>Both hands extended forwards? Not sure if this may be useful.<br />
</li>
</ul>
<br />
Things to ignore: <ul class="mycode_list"><li>I have always interpreted her as standing, but some think she's sitting, so the overall pose may be ambiguous, I wouldn't include this.<br />
</li>
<li>Her pose does not allow us to see whether the garment is belted.<br />
</li>
</ul>
<br />
Please let me know if I missed anything important, or if you would omit or change anything.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[Eggyk volunteered to take over managing the excel sheets for Zodiac imagery rating, which I am very grateful for. <br />
<br />
As you may recall, we started off with Taurus: You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view. <br />
Eggyk will also transfer this sheet into a new, standard layout. <br />
<br />
So now, let's discuss which features should be tracked for Virgo. Here is the VM Virgo for reference:<br />
<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="JPG Image" border="0" alt=".jpg" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16365" target="_blank" title="">Untitled-7.jpg</a> (Size: 107.74 KB / Downloads: 152)
<br />
<br />
Some initial ideas, all subject to change depending on your input and a trial run:<ul class="mycode_list"><li>Headgear: how do we describe this hat? Should "wearing hat" and the type of hat be separate categories?<br />
</li>
<li>Blue dress: the main color of the clothing is blue. <br />
</li>
<li>Wide open sleeves at wrist/forearm level<br />
</li>
<li>Dagged edges of wide sleeves (we can include lace finish here as well, anything that provides a wavy or jagged edge).<br />
</li>
<li>Line at wrist level indicates undergarment with tighter sleeves (only if there is a wide-sleeved overgarment, this combination is the salient feature)<br />
</li>
<li>double line at the neck?<br />
</li>
<li>short hair style?<br />
</li>
<li>holding flower? Instances where she holds a star deserve special attention, but holding a flower seems like the most common approximation. The thing that she's holding could even be taken as a flower.<br />
</li>
<li>Standing on outdoor terrain (I wouldn't specify too much here)<br />
</li>
<li>Something about the width of the dress at the bottom? How to best describe this? Her dress flares up behind her to shoulder level. Is this due to the circular arrangement? This may become clear after a trial run.<br />
</li>
<li>Facing left<br />
</li>
<li>Both hands extended forwards? Not sure if this may be useful.<br />
</li>
</ul>
<br />
Things to ignore: <ul class="mycode_list"><li>I have always interpreted her as standing, but some think she's sitting, so the overall pose may be ambiguous, I wouldn't include this.<br />
</li>
<li>Her pose does not allow us to see whether the garment is belted.<br />
</li>
</ul>
<br />
Please let me know if I missed anything important, or if you would omit or change anything.]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
		<item>
			<title><![CDATA[Voynich Manuscript in Games]]></title>
			<link>https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5884.html</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2026 21:58:06 +0000</pubDate>
			<dc:creator><![CDATA[<a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=profile&uid=660">bi3mw</a>]]></dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5884.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[The recently released Gothic 1 remake shows one page of the VMS in the game.<br />
You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
<blockquote class="mycode_quote"><cite>Quote:</cite>While playing yesterday, I noticed something inside the captain's cabin of the shipwreck that I'm somewhat familiar with. A page from the real-life Voynich Manuscript (see the second image for actual page). It's really interesting because the Voynich Manuscript is a 240-page medieval book written by an unknown author in an unidentified language. No one has ever deciphered it, so we don't know what it says. It features drawings of mysterious plants, bathhouses, zodiac symbols, stars, etc in detail.</blockquote>
<br />
BTW: Alkimia isn't the first studio to display pages from the VMS. Kingdom Come: Deliverance 1 also showed it in the Kickstarter video (3:53).<br />
<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="PNG Image" border="0" alt=".png" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16355" target="_blank" title="">KCD1VMS.png</a> (Size: 328.28 KB / Downloads: 82)
<br />
<br />
edit: The VMS also appears in older games and is even part of the game’s plot in some cases:<br />
<br />
Broken Sword: The Sleeping Dragon (2003, PC, 3D adventure) – the manuscript is part of the game’s plot. Its text contains prophecies of natural disasters in the near future.<br />
<br />
Radiata Stories (2005, PlayStation 2) – the Voynich Manuscript appears as one of the books in the Vareth Institute.<br />
<br />
Assassin’s Creed IV: Black Flag (2013) – the Voynich Manuscript is part of the Animus database.<br />
<br />
Assassin’s Creed Rogue – the Voynich Manuscript is a key part of the plot.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[The recently released Gothic 1 remake shows one page of the VMS in the game.<br />
You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
<blockquote class="mycode_quote"><cite>Quote:</cite>While playing yesterday, I noticed something inside the captain's cabin of the shipwreck that I'm somewhat familiar with. A page from the real-life Voynich Manuscript (see the second image for actual page). It's really interesting because the Voynich Manuscript is a 240-page medieval book written by an unknown author in an unidentified language. No one has ever deciphered it, so we don't know what it says. It features drawings of mysterious plants, bathhouses, zodiac symbols, stars, etc in detail.</blockquote>
<br />
BTW: Alkimia isn't the first studio to display pages from the VMS. Kingdom Come: Deliverance 1 also showed it in the Kickstarter video (3:53).<br />
<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="PNG Image" border="0" alt=".png" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16355" target="_blank" title="">KCD1VMS.png</a> (Size: 328.28 KB / Downloads: 82)
<br />
<br />
edit: The VMS also appears in older games and is even part of the game’s plot in some cases:<br />
<br />
Broken Sword: The Sleeping Dragon (2003, PC, 3D adventure) – the manuscript is part of the game’s plot. Its text contains prophecies of natural disasters in the near future.<br />
<br />
Radiata Stories (2005, PlayStation 2) – the Voynich Manuscript appears as one of the books in the Vareth Institute.<br />
<br />
Assassin’s Creed IV: Black Flag (2013) – the Voynich Manuscript is part of the Animus database.<br />
<br />
Assassin’s Creed Rogue – the Voynich Manuscript is a key part of the plot.]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
		<item>
			<title><![CDATA[Voynich style herbs+text wrapping: BSB Cgm 728]]></title>
			<link>https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5883.html</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2026 17:03:25 +0000</pubDate>
			<dc:creator><![CDATA[<a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=profile&uid=2381">eggyk</a>]]></dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5883.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[I tried searching the forum, google, and the search engine and came up empty. Has this manuscript been discussed before? <br />
<br />
You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
1475-1500AD<br />
Germany SE / Austria <br />
Southern Bavaria (based on southern bavarian dialect)<br />
You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
The section from 71v-115r (scans 148-236) contains badly drawn herbs which are terribly coloured in. The text often wraps around the pictures, similar to the VMS. <br />
<br />
(It also has an abrelenn and augst, but that's not very relevant)<br />
<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="PNG Image" border="0" alt=".png" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16345" target="_blank" title="">image_2026-07-05_185620652.png</a> (Size: 458.64 KB / Downloads: 177)

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="PNG Image" border="0" alt=".png" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16346" target="_blank" title="">image_2026-07-05_185659147.png</a> (Size: 488.22 KB / Downloads: 177)
<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="PNG Image" border="0" alt=".png" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16347" target="_blank" title="">image_2026-07-05_185836306.png</a> (Size: 494.51 KB / Downloads: 176)

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="PNG Image" border="0" alt=".png" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16348" target="_blank" title="">image_2026-07-05_185949251.png</a> (Size: 510.18 KB / Downloads: 177)
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[I tried searching the forum, google, and the search engine and came up empty. Has this manuscript been discussed before? <br />
<br />
You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
1475-1500AD<br />
Germany SE / Austria <br />
Southern Bavaria (based on southern bavarian dialect)<br />
You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
The section from 71v-115r (scans 148-236) contains badly drawn herbs which are terribly coloured in. The text often wraps around the pictures, similar to the VMS. <br />
<br />
(It also has an abrelenn and augst, but that's not very relevant)<br />
<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="PNG Image" border="0" alt=".png" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16345" target="_blank" title="">image_2026-07-05_185620652.png</a> (Size: 458.64 KB / Downloads: 177)

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="PNG Image" border="0" alt=".png" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16346" target="_blank" title="">image_2026-07-05_185659147.png</a> (Size: 488.22 KB / Downloads: 177)
<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="PNG Image" border="0" alt=".png" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16347" target="_blank" title="">image_2026-07-05_185836306.png</a> (Size: 494.51 KB / Downloads: 176)

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="PNG Image" border="0" alt=".png" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16348" target="_blank" title="">image_2026-07-05_185949251.png</a> (Size: 510.18 KB / Downloads: 177)
]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
		<item>
			<title><![CDATA[Zodiac Imagery: Manuscript Collection/Discussion]]></title>
			<link>https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5874.html</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2026 13:17:33 +0000</pubDate>
			<dc:creator><![CDATA[<a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=profile&uid=2381">eggyk</a>]]></dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5874.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[Hello all, <br />
<br />
As many of the manuscripts being logged for the You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view. thread include calendars, I have created a sheet to log all of the instances of zodiac imagery within the manuscripts that have been found (zodiacs are often found near calendars). It was becoming more and more difficult to find and remember which entries were interesting as the list grew. My hope is to use this thread as a home base for myself and others who wish to collate, compare and discuss that imagery and their sequencing in general. I hope that with enough sequences, we may be able to start talking statistically about the general dating and location of the sequence based on general trends, similar to what has begun to happen with the month names. <br />
<br />
More specifically, this thread is about the generalisation and categorisation of sequences <span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">and</span> styles across digitised manuscripts in order to come to a better understanding of what was standard, along with when/where. It is also to permanently catalogue the exact sources along with their <span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">context</span> (the whole sequence, the use case, the location, the language, the handwriting, connected works), so that future efforts may be able to analyse them. Hopefully, we will be able to compare those trends and patterns (if they exist) with the sequence found in the VMS, perhaps quantitatively, probably subjectively.<br />
<br />
Finding connected works or patterns may also help in locating more examples. For instance, if we know voynichy lions accompany works on bloodletting, searching out bloodletting works may lead us to voynichy lions. <br />
<br />
I'm aware that many previous threads discussing various aspects of the VMS zodiacs exist like You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view. and You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view. and that previous collections of imagery exist. The issue is that many/most of the sources for the imagery in those threads are no longer easily findable, the data sometimes not easily usable (or full of dead links), often with discussions that are now years untouched. This spreadsheet and thread are intended as a continuation of that work, while collecting and archiving the sources in a different way.<br />
<br />
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />
<br />
<span style="text-decoration: underline;" class="mycode_u"><span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size">The sheet</span></span><br />
Link: You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
<br />
The sheet '<span style="color: #17b529;" class="mycode_color"><span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">Imagery Categorisation</span></span>' contains headers for each zodiac symbol, with colour codes to show which symbols are within each source. There are also headers for 'labours of the months', 'planetary imagery' (normally the planets personified and depicted with zodiac symbols), and a catch all 'other' for other interesting/relevant imagery.<br />
<br />
Unlike the month names, this sheet does not set out to score the sequences (yet), only to collect them. If we can work out a way in the future to score the "voynichy-ness" of the sequences, we can use the data collected here to do so. <br />
<br />
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />
<br />
This thread can also serve as a place for people to post/cite instances of <span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">medieval</span> zodiac imagery, especially in cases where the imagery is not interesting enough on its own to merit a seperate thread. So please feel free to post examples, preferably including the following info so they can be added easily:<br />
<br />
<span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">-Title + </span><span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">Manuscript reference/number</span><br />
<span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">-Link(s)</span><br />
<span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">-Contents (what is in the source and where)</span><br />
<br />
For searchability, detailed references are better - "Universitätsbibliothek Leipzig, Ms 34" instead of just "Ms 34".<br />
<br />
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />
<br />
Understandably, many of the manuscript examples in this spreadsheet were already seperately found numerous times, and their zodiac imagery posted across those previous threads. If anyone still has repositories of zodiac imagery and are happy for me to try and log them in this way (preferably with the original manuscript source or a potential way to find it),  please share! I am happy to go through and do some digging on dates, locations and other info for the manuscripts. And again, I apologise that this will almost certainly cover already covered ground at various points; I appreciate a lot of work has been done already. <br />
<br />
As of the writing of this post, there are only ~60 manuscripts containing zodiac imagery logged on the spreadsheet out of the ~350 entries i've gone through so far. There are currently around another 200 for me to go through and check which I will do over the next day or so.  <img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/smilies/smile.png" alt="Smile" title="Smile" class="smilie smilie_1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[Hello all, <br />
<br />
As many of the manuscripts being logged for the You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view. thread include calendars, I have created a sheet to log all of the instances of zodiac imagery within the manuscripts that have been found (zodiacs are often found near calendars). It was becoming more and more difficult to find and remember which entries were interesting as the list grew. My hope is to use this thread as a home base for myself and others who wish to collate, compare and discuss that imagery and their sequencing in general. I hope that with enough sequences, we may be able to start talking statistically about the general dating and location of the sequence based on general trends, similar to what has begun to happen with the month names. <br />
<br />
More specifically, this thread is about the generalisation and categorisation of sequences <span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">and</span> styles across digitised manuscripts in order to come to a better understanding of what was standard, along with when/where. It is also to permanently catalogue the exact sources along with their <span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">context</span> (the whole sequence, the use case, the location, the language, the handwriting, connected works), so that future efforts may be able to analyse them. Hopefully, we will be able to compare those trends and patterns (if they exist) with the sequence found in the VMS, perhaps quantitatively, probably subjectively.<br />
<br />
Finding connected works or patterns may also help in locating more examples. For instance, if we know voynichy lions accompany works on bloodletting, searching out bloodletting works may lead us to voynichy lions. <br />
<br />
I'm aware that many previous threads discussing various aspects of the VMS zodiacs exist like You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view. and You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view. and that previous collections of imagery exist. The issue is that many/most of the sources for the imagery in those threads are no longer easily findable, the data sometimes not easily usable (or full of dead links), often with discussions that are now years untouched. This spreadsheet and thread are intended as a continuation of that work, while collecting and archiving the sources in a different way.<br />
<br />
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />
<br />
<span style="text-decoration: underline;" class="mycode_u"><span style="font-size: medium;" class="mycode_size">The sheet</span></span><br />
Link: You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
<br />
The sheet '<span style="color: #17b529;" class="mycode_color"><span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">Imagery Categorisation</span></span>' contains headers for each zodiac symbol, with colour codes to show which symbols are within each source. There are also headers for 'labours of the months', 'planetary imagery' (normally the planets personified and depicted with zodiac symbols), and a catch all 'other' for other interesting/relevant imagery.<br />
<br />
Unlike the month names, this sheet does not set out to score the sequences (yet), only to collect them. If we can work out a way in the future to score the "voynichy-ness" of the sequences, we can use the data collected here to do so. <br />
<br />
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />
<br />
This thread can also serve as a place for people to post/cite instances of <span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">medieval</span> zodiac imagery, especially in cases where the imagery is not interesting enough on its own to merit a seperate thread. So please feel free to post examples, preferably including the following info so they can be added easily:<br />
<br />
<span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">-Title + </span><span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">Manuscript reference/number</span><br />
<span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">-Link(s)</span><br />
<span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">-Contents (what is in the source and where)</span><br />
<br />
For searchability, detailed references are better - "Universitätsbibliothek Leipzig, Ms 34" instead of just "Ms 34".<br />
<br />
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />
<br />
Understandably, many of the manuscript examples in this spreadsheet were already seperately found numerous times, and their zodiac imagery posted across those previous threads. If anyone still has repositories of zodiac imagery and are happy for me to try and log them in this way (preferably with the original manuscript source or a potential way to find it),  please share! I am happy to go through and do some digging on dates, locations and other info for the manuscripts. And again, I apologise that this will almost certainly cover already covered ground at various points; I appreciate a lot of work has been done already. <br />
<br />
As of the writing of this post, there are only ~60 manuscripts containing zodiac imagery logged on the spreadsheet out of the ~350 entries i've gone through so far. There are currently around another 200 for me to go through and check which I will do over the next day or so.  <img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/smilies/smile.png" alt="Smile" title="Smile" class="smilie smilie_1" />]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
		<item>
			<title><![CDATA[Are marginalia clues?]]></title>
			<link>https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5880.html</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2026 12:55:45 +0000</pubDate>
			<dc:creator><![CDATA[<a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=profile&uid=3690">ololololo</a>]]></dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5880.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[With the exception of the inscriptions in the Zodiac, I believe it is possible that the marginalia on f17r, You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view. (specifically "der musdel"), and You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view. were added by someone who understood the manuscript.<br />
The marginalia on You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view. at the end contain two words in Voynich: <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">oteeeor (otcheor) aim</span>, where <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">oteeeor</span> appears in f68r2 and <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">otcheor</span> appears in f70v2. If we do not attempt to interpret the meaning of this text, we can infer that the person understood the significance of these two words.<br />
The part of "der musdel" on You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view. looks "fresh" in terms of ink color, compared to the inscriptions on the Voynichese and the drawing of the man. It is evident that the man was drawn by the same person who wrote the manuscript, and during the process of writing. It is also possible that the bowl and balls were drawn by the author of "der musdel", but I am not certain. In my opinion, this inscription seems meaningless in any other form, as it is supposed to clarify the drawing on the right.<br />
As for f116v, I can only say that this marginalia contains <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">aror sheey</span>, and the handwriting is similar to that of "der musdel" (at least the "m" letters are identical).<br />
Based on this, it would be possible to try to provide clues to the text in these marginalia. For example, der musdel could be a "continuation" of the text above (roughly speaking, <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">otcheo daiin chty ykchscheg</span> could mean "how to treat this person?" or "it is treated with flour", in which case "der musdel" would specify the type of flour). At the very least, we have reason to believe that the author of these marginalia knew the content of the text. Perhaps he can share his knowledge with us...<br />
<br />
<span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">What do you think?</span>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[With the exception of the inscriptions in the Zodiac, I believe it is possible that the marginalia on f17r, You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view. (specifically "der musdel"), and You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view. were added by someone who understood the manuscript.<br />
The marginalia on You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view. at the end contain two words in Voynich: <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">oteeeor (otcheor) aim</span>, where <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">oteeeor</span> appears in f68r2 and <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">otcheor</span> appears in f70v2. If we do not attempt to interpret the meaning of this text, we can infer that the person understood the significance of these two words.<br />
The part of "der musdel" on You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view. looks "fresh" in terms of ink color, compared to the inscriptions on the Voynichese and the drawing of the man. It is evident that the man was drawn by the same person who wrote the manuscript, and during the process of writing. It is also possible that the bowl and balls were drawn by the author of "der musdel", but I am not certain. In my opinion, this inscription seems meaningless in any other form, as it is supposed to clarify the drawing on the right.<br />
As for f116v, I can only say that this marginalia contains <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">aror sheey</span>, and the handwriting is similar to that of "der musdel" (at least the "m" letters are identical).<br />
Based on this, it would be possible to try to provide clues to the text in these marginalia. For example, der musdel could be a "continuation" of the text above (roughly speaking, <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">otcheo daiin chty ykchscheg</span> could mean "how to treat this person?" or "it is treated with flour", in which case "der musdel" would specify the type of flour). At the very least, we have reason to believe that the author of these marginalia knew the content of the text. Perhaps he can share his knowledge with us...<br />
<br />
<span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">What do you think?</span>]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
		<item>
			<title><![CDATA[One Glyph-multiple possible readings- coder's tool?]]></title>
			<link>https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5879.html</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2026 06:10:07 +0000</pubDate>
			<dc:creator><![CDATA[<a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=profile&uid=2182">BessAgritianin</a>]]></dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5879.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[Here I want to express my opinion that the ambiguity in reading the text of VM is not a failure of the writing system, but the goal of the coding. <br />
Let us consider the word from f2r-6 row:<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="JPG Image" border="0" alt=".jpg" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16342" target="_blank" title="">rain.jpg</a> (Size: 20.7 KB / Downloads: 189)
<br />
<br />
It could be read as:<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="JPG Image" border="0" alt=".jpg" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16343" target="_blank" title="">Roud.jpg</a> (Size: 39.6 KB / Downloads: 188)
<br />
 <br />
Consider that this word appears 144 times according voynicese browser. It is important for the text. Its decoding -too. <br />
The language is structural and the placement of the glyphs is not random, but ruled based.<br />
<br />
<span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">Is ambiguity the coder's method?</span>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[Here I want to express my opinion that the ambiguity in reading the text of VM is not a failure of the writing system, but the goal of the coding. <br />
Let us consider the word from f2r-6 row:<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="JPG Image" border="0" alt=".jpg" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16342" target="_blank" title="">rain.jpg</a> (Size: 20.7 KB / Downloads: 189)
<br />
<br />
It could be read as:<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="JPG Image" border="0" alt=".jpg" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16343" target="_blank" title="">Roud.jpg</a> (Size: 39.6 KB / Downloads: 188)
<br />
 <br />
Consider that this word appears 144 times according voynicese browser. It is important for the text. Its decoding -too. <br />
The language is structural and the placement of the glyphs is not random, but ruled based.<br />
<br />
<span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">Is ambiguity the coder's method?</span>]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
		<item>
			<title><![CDATA[Statistical analysis, two findings, one potentially new]]></title>
			<link>https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5878.html</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2026 00:50:44 +0000</pubDate>
			<dc:creator><![CDATA[<a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=profile&uid=3750">mjtemkin</a>]]></dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5878.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[Hello everyone! I'm new to this site and to a lot of the research that has been done on the Voynich Manuscript. However, I found myself with some free time so I thought I'd play with some techniques I used in previous lives (I studied high energy physics and worked in Machine Learning, both a while ago). Since my knowledge and experience isn't super recent, I used the help of Claude to actually do the specific analysis, but to be clear the direction/hypothesis/questions were driven by me (and when I say "we" below I mean me+Claude). I hope this meets the community standards, and if not I'm happy to remove the post and just learn from the community. <br />
<br />
All of the work is publicly available, including source code, a pdf writeup, and a step by step guide to what I did.<br />
<br />
The work is available here: You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
The pdf is here and attached to this post: You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
What this is and isn't: this is not a decipherment, nor was an attempt to decipher the manuscript. It's an independent replication and methodological extension of existing statistical work asking the question "was this manuscript generated from some kind of natural language." All code is public and every result comes with a permutation-based null model, so everything is reproducible from scratch.<br />
<br />
Two main findings:<br />
<br />
1. Immediate word-doubling at ~2x chance (word[i] == word[i+1], within a manuscript line). This is a well-known anomaly, but I tested it more carefully than I'd seen done before, across six languages and registers with formal z-scores throughout. I used some language samples that I thought could potentially contain word doublings naturally, to compare against the manuscript, including:<br />
<br />
  - Culpeper's Complete Herbal (English, genre-matched): zero doublings, far below its own chance baseline. The hypothesis here was that if the manuscript was some kind of list (recipes, etc) perhaps a contemporaneous similar list could show the same pattern.<br />
  - Carmina Burana In Taberna (Latin verse, maximally repetition-saturated, "bibit" repeated 24 times consecutively): zero doublings. The hypothesis here was that perhaps a contemporaneous document that was more poetic in nature could show similar doublings.<br />
  - Arabic Al-Baqarah and Yusuf (consonantal): at or below chance. Arabic and Hebrew were including to look at languages that don't contain consonants and could show patterns that don't exist in long-form Latin languages because words could have multiple meanings.<br />
  - Hebrew Psalms 113-150 / Hallel (liturgical Hebrew poetry): z = -2.87, p = 0.998- significantly SUPPRESSED below chance. The hypothesis here was that perhaps poetry in a language with a different structure could show similar doublings.<br />
  - Hebrew Psalms full 150 chapters (19,662 words): z = -3.73, p = 1.000- even more strongly suppressed<br />
  - Sanskrit Rigveda (complete, 135,279 words, IAST romanization): z = +3.04, p = 0.002- elevated above chance, though we flag this needs verification due to potential IAST sandhi encoding artifacts. Same hypothesis as liturgical Hebrew.<br />
<br />
The Hebrew liturgical result is the one I find most interesting. Psalm 136 repeats the same phrase 26 times. Psalm 113 opens "הללו יה הללו". And yet the doubling rate is significantly BELOW chance — because real liturgical repetition always inserts at least one different word between repetitions of<br />
the same phrase. "הללו יה הללו" is not "הללו הללו." That's also exactly what Carmina Burana does: "bibit hera, bibit herus-" same verb, different subject every time. Real repetition, whether poetic or liturgical, doesn't produce literal self-adjacency. Voynichese does, at ~2x chance, stationarily across the full manuscript.<br />
<br />
The effect also survived a cross-section permutation test (p = 0.144 for the section gap — consistent with a single stationary process throughout), and a<br />
local scramble test showing it depends on line co-membership rather than exact write-order.<br />
<br />
2. Word-class ordering asymmetry — new to our analysis. Classifying words by their 2-character suffix (following Stolfi's grammar framework) and measuring directional ordering preferences between classes, both Currier languages show significantly asymmetric ordering: z = 4.72 for Language A, z = 4.77 for Language B, both p &lt; 0.0001, robust to a frequency-matching control. Every other structural test returned null — this is the first positive,<br />
grammar-suggestive result. I want to be careful: positional structure doesn't prove meaningful language. But it is something simple stateless generators don't produce by default, and the effect is equally strong in both Currier languages on the full validated corpus.<br />
<br />
On the corpus: I used the complete FSG transliteration (Reeds 1994, from voynich.nu), validated word-for-word against the source file. In the process<br />
we found that several Stars-section folios in our working corpus had been severely truncated (some folios had only 20-25% of their true content).<br />
After rebuilding from the full authoritative file the corpus grew from ~14,000 to ~33,600 words (~88% of the manuscript). All findings were re-validated on the full corpus; the word-class asymmetry finding in particular changed meaningfully — what had looked like a gap between Language A and Language B disappeared entirely, with both now showing indistinguishable z-scores.<br />
<br />
Happy to discuss methodology, findings, or criticisms. Hopefully it's clear what does and doesn't hold up (the Sanskrit result needs verification; an<br />
earlier attempt to add corpus data produced fabricated text that was caught and removed before any analysis used it, and is documented in the repo). The GitHub repo has full documentation of every finding including the ones that failed or changed.<br />
<br />
Thanks everyone, and looking forward to discussing.<br />
<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/pdf.png" title="Adobe Acrobat PDF" border="0" alt=".pdf" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16338" target="_blank" title="">voynich_statistical_analysis.pdf</a> (Size: 470.33 KB / Downloads: 11)
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[Hello everyone! I'm new to this site and to a lot of the research that has been done on the Voynich Manuscript. However, I found myself with some free time so I thought I'd play with some techniques I used in previous lives (I studied high energy physics and worked in Machine Learning, both a while ago). Since my knowledge and experience isn't super recent, I used the help of Claude to actually do the specific analysis, but to be clear the direction/hypothesis/questions were driven by me (and when I say "we" below I mean me+Claude). I hope this meets the community standards, and if not I'm happy to remove the post and just learn from the community. <br />
<br />
All of the work is publicly available, including source code, a pdf writeup, and a step by step guide to what I did.<br />
<br />
The work is available here: You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
The pdf is here and attached to this post: You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
What this is and isn't: this is not a decipherment, nor was an attempt to decipher the manuscript. It's an independent replication and methodological extension of existing statistical work asking the question "was this manuscript generated from some kind of natural language." All code is public and every result comes with a permutation-based null model, so everything is reproducible from scratch.<br />
<br />
Two main findings:<br />
<br />
1. Immediate word-doubling at ~2x chance (word[i] == word[i+1], within a manuscript line). This is a well-known anomaly, but I tested it more carefully than I'd seen done before, across six languages and registers with formal z-scores throughout. I used some language samples that I thought could potentially contain word doublings naturally, to compare against the manuscript, including:<br />
<br />
  - Culpeper's Complete Herbal (English, genre-matched): zero doublings, far below its own chance baseline. The hypothesis here was that if the manuscript was some kind of list (recipes, etc) perhaps a contemporaneous similar list could show the same pattern.<br />
  - Carmina Burana In Taberna (Latin verse, maximally repetition-saturated, "bibit" repeated 24 times consecutively): zero doublings. The hypothesis here was that perhaps a contemporaneous document that was more poetic in nature could show similar doublings.<br />
  - Arabic Al-Baqarah and Yusuf (consonantal): at or below chance. Arabic and Hebrew were including to look at languages that don't contain consonants and could show patterns that don't exist in long-form Latin languages because words could have multiple meanings.<br />
  - Hebrew Psalms 113-150 / Hallel (liturgical Hebrew poetry): z = -2.87, p = 0.998- significantly SUPPRESSED below chance. The hypothesis here was that perhaps poetry in a language with a different structure could show similar doublings.<br />
  - Hebrew Psalms full 150 chapters (19,662 words): z = -3.73, p = 1.000- even more strongly suppressed<br />
  - Sanskrit Rigveda (complete, 135,279 words, IAST romanization): z = +3.04, p = 0.002- elevated above chance, though we flag this needs verification due to potential IAST sandhi encoding artifacts. Same hypothesis as liturgical Hebrew.<br />
<br />
The Hebrew liturgical result is the one I find most interesting. Psalm 136 repeats the same phrase 26 times. Psalm 113 opens "הללו יה הללו". And yet the doubling rate is significantly BELOW chance — because real liturgical repetition always inserts at least one different word between repetitions of<br />
the same phrase. "הללו יה הללו" is not "הללו הללו." That's also exactly what Carmina Burana does: "bibit hera, bibit herus-" same verb, different subject every time. Real repetition, whether poetic or liturgical, doesn't produce literal self-adjacency. Voynichese does, at ~2x chance, stationarily across the full manuscript.<br />
<br />
The effect also survived a cross-section permutation test (p = 0.144 for the section gap — consistent with a single stationary process throughout), and a<br />
local scramble test showing it depends on line co-membership rather than exact write-order.<br />
<br />
2. Word-class ordering asymmetry — new to our analysis. Classifying words by their 2-character suffix (following Stolfi's grammar framework) and measuring directional ordering preferences between classes, both Currier languages show significantly asymmetric ordering: z = 4.72 for Language A, z = 4.77 for Language B, both p &lt; 0.0001, robust to a frequency-matching control. Every other structural test returned null — this is the first positive,<br />
grammar-suggestive result. I want to be careful: positional structure doesn't prove meaningful language. But it is something simple stateless generators don't produce by default, and the effect is equally strong in both Currier languages on the full validated corpus.<br />
<br />
On the corpus: I used the complete FSG transliteration (Reeds 1994, from voynich.nu), validated word-for-word against the source file. In the process<br />
we found that several Stars-section folios in our working corpus had been severely truncated (some folios had only 20-25% of their true content).<br />
After rebuilding from the full authoritative file the corpus grew from ~14,000 to ~33,600 words (~88% of the manuscript). All findings were re-validated on the full corpus; the word-class asymmetry finding in particular changed meaningfully — what had looked like a gap between Language A and Language B disappeared entirely, with both now showing indistinguishable z-scores.<br />
<br />
Happy to discuss methodology, findings, or criticisms. Hopefully it's clear what does and doesn't hold up (the Sanskrit result needs verification; an<br />
earlier attempt to add corpus data produced fabricated text that was caught and removed before any analysis used it, and is documented in the repo). The GitHub repo has full documentation of every finding including the ones that failed or changed.<br />
<br />
Thanks everyone, and looking forward to discussing.<br />
<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/pdf.png" title="Adobe Acrobat PDF" border="0" alt=".pdf" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16338" target="_blank" title="">voynich_statistical_analysis.pdf</a> (Size: 470.33 KB / Downloads: 11)
]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
		<item>
			<title><![CDATA[How to read marginalia on f28v?]]></title>
			<link>https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5875.html</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2026 10:53:55 +0000</pubDate>
			<dc:creator><![CDATA[<a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=profile&uid=3690">ololololo</a>]]></dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5875.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[It seems strange to me that very little attention has been paid to this marginalia.<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="JPG Image" border="0" alt=".jpg" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16334" target="_blank" title="">Снимок экрана 2026-07-04 134815.jpg</a> (Size: 205.39 KB / Downloads: 112)
<br />
The first letter is n with an underscore. The second letter is similar to the red letters on You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view. in shape, there is something similar on f68r2:<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="JPG Image" border="0" alt=".jpg" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16335" target="_blank" title="">Снимок экрана 2026-07-04 135028.jpg</a> (Size: 36.48 KB / Downloads: 113)
<br />
I have not found any information about reading this letter combination. Most likely, this is a color designation, but what kind of color is it?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[It seems strange to me that very little attention has been paid to this marginalia.<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="JPG Image" border="0" alt=".jpg" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16334" target="_blank" title="">Снимок экрана 2026-07-04 134815.jpg</a> (Size: 205.39 KB / Downloads: 112)
<br />
The first letter is n with an underscore. The second letter is similar to the red letters on You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view. in shape, there is something similar on f68r2:<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="JPG Image" border="0" alt=".jpg" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16335" target="_blank" title="">Снимок экрана 2026-07-04 135028.jpg</a> (Size: 36.48 KB / Downloads: 113)
<br />
I have not found any information about reading this letter combination. Most likely, this is a color designation, but what kind of color is it?]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
		<item>
			<title><![CDATA[One funny word on f114r.30]]></title>
			<link>https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5867.html</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2026 05:25:52 +0000</pubDate>
			<dc:creator><![CDATA[<a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=profile&uid=2733">Jorge_Stolfi</a>]]></dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5867.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[Consider the word <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">lkeede</span> near the center of this image (f114r line 30):<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="JPG Image" border="0" alt=".jpg" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16283" target="_blank" title="">f114r.29-30.jpg</a> (Size: 252.85 KB / Downloads: 137)
<br />
What do you see there? (No, this is not related to the BEEP theory.)<br />
<br />
By my count, there are only three words that end with <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">de</span> in the whole Starred Parags section (SPS).  One is a <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">qoteode</span>, the fourth word on line 12 of f104r, a parag head line:<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="JPG Image" border="0" alt=".jpg" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16285" target="_blank" title="">f104r.11-13.jpg</a> (Size: 306.98 KB / Downloads: 136)
<br />
Here the <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">de</span> apparently was the last thing that the Scribe wrote before pausing to recharge the quill.<br />
<br />
The other <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">de</span> is on the first word of You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view. line 36, that happens to be a parag head too:<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="JPG Image" border="0" alt=".jpg" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16286" target="_blank" title="">f112v-36.jpg</a> (Size: 292.19 KB / Downloads: 136)
<br />
<br />
The <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">lkeede</span> instance at the top of this post occurs near the end of a largish parag (f114r.28--31) There is no sign of quill recharging there, but the next three words <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">aiin</span> <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">oeedaiin</span> <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">qoaiin</span> seem to be a bit more crooked than usual.<br />
<br />
There is no <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">lkeedaiin</span> or <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">lkeedo</span> in my transcription of the SPS, but there are two <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">lkeedar</span>, one <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">lkeedal</span>, one lkeedol, two <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">lkeedain</span>,one <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">lkeed, </span> and a lot of <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">lkeedy</span>.<br />
<br />
The digraph <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">de</span> occurs quite a few times in the middle of words, but mostly in groups <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">dee</span> or <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">deee</span>. In my alphabet/word model, those cases would be parsed as a {<span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">d</span>} "element" followed by an {<span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">ee</span>} or {<span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">eee</span>} element, which is allowed.  Whereas <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">de</span> before any glyph other than <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">e</span> (11 occurrences in my SPS) would have to be parsed as a single element -- a <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">d</span> with an <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">e</span> modifier -- which is forbidden.<br />
<br />
All the best, --stolfi]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[Consider the word <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">lkeede</span> near the center of this image (f114r line 30):<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="JPG Image" border="0" alt=".jpg" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16283" target="_blank" title="">f114r.29-30.jpg</a> (Size: 252.85 KB / Downloads: 137)
<br />
What do you see there? (No, this is not related to the BEEP theory.)<br />
<br />
By my count, there are only three words that end with <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">de</span> in the whole Starred Parags section (SPS).  One is a <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">qoteode</span>, the fourth word on line 12 of f104r, a parag head line:<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="JPG Image" border="0" alt=".jpg" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16285" target="_blank" title="">f104r.11-13.jpg</a> (Size: 306.98 KB / Downloads: 136)
<br />
Here the <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">de</span> apparently was the last thing that the Scribe wrote before pausing to recharge the quill.<br />
<br />
The other <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">de</span> is on the first word of You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view. line 36, that happens to be a parag head too:<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="JPG Image" border="0" alt=".jpg" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16286" target="_blank" title="">f112v-36.jpg</a> (Size: 292.19 KB / Downloads: 136)
<br />
<br />
The <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">lkeede</span> instance at the top of this post occurs near the end of a largish parag (f114r.28--31) There is no sign of quill recharging there, but the next three words <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">aiin</span> <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">oeedaiin</span> <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">qoaiin</span> seem to be a bit more crooked than usual.<br />
<br />
There is no <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">lkeedaiin</span> or <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">lkeedo</span> in my transcription of the SPS, but there are two <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">lkeedar</span>, one <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">lkeedal</span>, one lkeedol, two <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">lkeedain</span>,one <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">lkeed, </span> and a lot of <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">lkeedy</span>.<br />
<br />
The digraph <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">de</span> occurs quite a few times in the middle of words, but mostly in groups <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">dee</span> or <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">deee</span>. In my alphabet/word model, those cases would be parsed as a {<span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">d</span>} "element" followed by an {<span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">ee</span>} or {<span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">eee</span>} element, which is allowed.  Whereas <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">de</span> before any glyph other than <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">e</span> (11 occurrences in my SPS) would have to be parsed as a single element -- a <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">d</span> with an <span style="font-family: Eva;" class="mycode_font">e</span> modifier -- which is forbidden.<br />
<br />
All the best, --stolfi]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
		<item>
			<title><![CDATA[VMS translation]]></title>
			<link>https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5866.html</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2026 02:45:47 +0000</pubDate>
			<dc:creator><![CDATA[<a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=profile&uid=3748">dunn.b</a>]]></dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5866.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[my theory is simple. what if the book is its own Rosetta Stone?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[my theory is simple. what if the book is its own Rosetta Stone?]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
		<item>
			<title><![CDATA[Generators and Positional Tendencies]]></title>
			<link>https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5864.html</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2026 17:59:12 +0000</pubDate>
			<dc:creator><![CDATA[<a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=profile&uid=3650">JoeyB</a>]]></dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5864.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[I'm curious how the generator theories can account for the positional tendencies people here keep finding, and I didn’t want to blow up someone else’s thread about their generator. I'm not arguing against a generator, I just can't picture one rule producing all of them, since they seem to work in different ways.<br />
<br />
Starting right at the front of the VMS, the two paragraphs of folio f2r:<br />
<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="PNG Image" border="0" alt=".png" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16276" target="_blank" title="">positional_map.png</a> (Size: 244.48 KB / Downloads: 124)
<br />
<br />
What's been noticed by the pros here:<br />
<br />
1. Tavie's vertical impact: a line's opener avoids the glyph directly above it, and it's directional (o→q is common, q→o isn't; o-o is avoided but s-s is fine). You can watch it in the opener column, they keep changing all the way down.<br />
<br />
2. Anton's opener order (from "Regaining the lost order"): openers advance through a set sequence, k y d ch o q s sh. Anton reads You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view. as k-d-q in both paragraphs (which you can see), and says paras tend to open with a gallows. The first paragraph here it runs k→d→q→[c]→o→s→sh.<br />
<br />
3. Top row: gallows p/f cluster on the first line of a paragraph (Tavie, Currier, Feaster). Here that's p in ypchol/ypchaiin (line 1) and f in fodan (line 8).<br />
<br />
4. Feaster's drift: big picture within a line, sh→ch, qo→o, k→t shift rightward, and word makeup drifts as you go down the paragraph.<br />
<br />
5. Line ends: the last word tends to differ from mid words (Currier).<br />
<br />
So my question: how does a generator that writes left to right, one line at a time, produce these, especially the vertical one? What ties right drift to opener order to being allergic to verticality… maybe it’s separate habits, coincidence, astral phenomena…<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
// FWIW here is the rabbit hole of other threads I didn’t want to blow up with this question, and sources for positionality such I’ve been sorting through on this. This started with me just privately trying to aggregate rules and tendencies to harmonize over a nice pour of whiskey:<br />
<br />
A. Other positional tendencies I left off the image:<br />
<br />
benches (ch/sh) are rare as line-openers but spike later: You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
first words of lines run longer, second words shorter, Vogt 2012 (plain handwriting effect?): You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
long-range word correlations look like real topic structure, Montemurro &amp; Zanette 2013: You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
q-start and m-end lines are anti-correlated (MarcoP and pfeaster in the vertical-impact thread below)<br />
<br />
B. Sources for what's on the image:<br />
<br />
vertical impact, Tavie: You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
opener order, Anton: You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
drift, Feaster 2022: You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
line as a functional unit, Currier 1976<br />
<br />
C. Related threads: <br />
<br />
ch/sh interchangeability You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
copy/mutate ledger You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
hoax/generator debate You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
generators: Timm &amp; Schinner 2019 (self-citation) You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
Cardan grille, Rugg 2004 You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
ReneZ 2021 write-up You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
Schinner 2007, lots here and the stochastic generator observation You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[I'm curious how the generator theories can account for the positional tendencies people here keep finding, and I didn’t want to blow up someone else’s thread about their generator. I'm not arguing against a generator, I just can't picture one rule producing all of them, since they seem to work in different ways.<br />
<br />
Starting right at the front of the VMS, the two paragraphs of folio f2r:<br />
<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="PNG Image" border="0" alt=".png" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16276" target="_blank" title="">positional_map.png</a> (Size: 244.48 KB / Downloads: 124)
<br />
<br />
What's been noticed by the pros here:<br />
<br />
1. Tavie's vertical impact: a line's opener avoids the glyph directly above it, and it's directional (o→q is common, q→o isn't; o-o is avoided but s-s is fine). You can watch it in the opener column, they keep changing all the way down.<br />
<br />
2. Anton's opener order (from "Regaining the lost order"): openers advance through a set sequence, k y d ch o q s sh. Anton reads You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view. as k-d-q in both paragraphs (which you can see), and says paras tend to open with a gallows. The first paragraph here it runs k→d→q→[c]→o→s→sh.<br />
<br />
3. Top row: gallows p/f cluster on the first line of a paragraph (Tavie, Currier, Feaster). Here that's p in ypchol/ypchaiin (line 1) and f in fodan (line 8).<br />
<br />
4. Feaster's drift: big picture within a line, sh→ch, qo→o, k→t shift rightward, and word makeup drifts as you go down the paragraph.<br />
<br />
5. Line ends: the last word tends to differ from mid words (Currier).<br />
<br />
So my question: how does a generator that writes left to right, one line at a time, produce these, especially the vertical one? What ties right drift to opener order to being allergic to verticality… maybe it’s separate habits, coincidence, astral phenomena…<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
// FWIW here is the rabbit hole of other threads I didn’t want to blow up with this question, and sources for positionality such I’ve been sorting through on this. This started with me just privately trying to aggregate rules and tendencies to harmonize over a nice pour of whiskey:<br />
<br />
A. Other positional tendencies I left off the image:<br />
<br />
benches (ch/sh) are rare as line-openers but spike later: You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
first words of lines run longer, second words shorter, Vogt 2012 (plain handwriting effect?): You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
long-range word correlations look like real topic structure, Montemurro &amp; Zanette 2013: You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
q-start and m-end lines are anti-correlated (MarcoP and pfeaster in the vertical-impact thread below)<br />
<br />
B. Sources for what's on the image:<br />
<br />
vertical impact, Tavie: You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
opener order, Anton: You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
drift, Feaster 2022: You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
line as a functional unit, Currier 1976<br />
<br />
C. Related threads: <br />
<br />
ch/sh interchangeability You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
copy/mutate ledger You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
hoax/generator debate You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
generators: Timm &amp; Schinner 2019 (self-citation) You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
Cardan grille, Rugg 2004 You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
ReneZ 2021 write-up You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
Schinner 2007, lots here and the stochastic generator observation You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
		<item>
			<title><![CDATA[Groups and weights of symbols]]></title>
			<link>https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5863.html</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2026 20:23:38 +0000</pubDate>
			<dc:creator><![CDATA[<a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=profile&uid=3690">ololololo</a>]]></dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5863.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[I posted this in my thread, but it might be worth posting it here as well.<br />
I don't have any statistical research on hand, so I can't justify it with scripts or tables. I've determined all of this, let's say, "by eye".<br />
Instead of using linguistic concepts such as "prefix," "root," "suffix," or models like "Crust-Mantle-Core," I decided to try to represent positional patterns in terms of character ratios (identifying which characters are "bigger" than others and assigning weights accordingly).<br />
Here's what I have (sorry for the crooked drawing):<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="PNG Image" border="0" alt=".png" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16255" target="_blank" title="">groups.png</a> (Size: 150.73 KB / Downloads: 35)
<br />
The symbols are grouped conditionally. The largest symbol here is <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">o</span> (ignoring <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">q</span>), and the smallest is <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">y</span> (it appears 23 times after <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">n</span>, which is smaller than even a conventional unit!)<br />
The unit group is special in that it is difficult to define internal relationships. I can assume that <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">r</span> is greater than <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">i</span> based on 18 examples where<span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i"> r</span> precedes<span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i"> i</span>. <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">d</span> is less than <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">e</span>, because I believe that <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">a</span> = <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">ei</span>. But if we consider <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">a</span> as a separate symbol, it will be in the same group.<br />
Some remarkable ratios:<br />
1). <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">ch'</span>s more than a dozens of them, but fewer gallows. Also, <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">ch</span>'s more than <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">o</span>.<br />
2). <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">x</span> is more than a dozens<br />
3). In the category with the symbol <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">q</span>, I can enter <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">c</span>, which has the property of standing in front of gallows (I mean cases like <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">ct</span>, not <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">cth</span>)<br />
4). It is difficult to determine the weight of<span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i"> s</span>, but I assume that it is the largest in the dozens group, as well as more than <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">ch</span>.<br />
<br />
I don't know what good it will do, but I did it <img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/moresmilies/angel.png" alt="Angel" title="Angel" class="smilie smilie_44" /> Well, at the very least, it perfectly demonstrates the peculiarity of the Voynichese letters. Since they can easily be assigned weights, maybe they're not letters at all, but something else... Maybe they're numbers... Maybe even You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.?<br />
<br />
<span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">What do you think?</span>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[I posted this in my thread, but it might be worth posting it here as well.<br />
I don't have any statistical research on hand, so I can't justify it with scripts or tables. I've determined all of this, let's say, "by eye".<br />
Instead of using linguistic concepts such as "prefix," "root," "suffix," or models like "Crust-Mantle-Core," I decided to try to represent positional patterns in terms of character ratios (identifying which characters are "bigger" than others and assigning weights accordingly).<br />
Here's what I have (sorry for the crooked drawing):<br />

<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="PNG Image" border="0" alt=".png" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16255" target="_blank" title="">groups.png</a> (Size: 150.73 KB / Downloads: 35)
<br />
The symbols are grouped conditionally. The largest symbol here is <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">o</span> (ignoring <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">q</span>), and the smallest is <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">y</span> (it appears 23 times after <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">n</span>, which is smaller than even a conventional unit!)<br />
The unit group is special in that it is difficult to define internal relationships. I can assume that <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">r</span> is greater than <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">i</span> based on 18 examples where<span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i"> r</span> precedes<span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i"> i</span>. <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">d</span> is less than <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">e</span>, because I believe that <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">a</span> = <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">ei</span>. But if we consider <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">a</span> as a separate symbol, it will be in the same group.<br />
Some remarkable ratios:<br />
1). <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">ch'</span>s more than a dozens of them, but fewer gallows. Also, <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">ch</span>'s more than <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">o</span>.<br />
2). <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">x</span> is more than a dozens<br />
3). In the category with the symbol <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">q</span>, I can enter <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">c</span>, which has the property of standing in front of gallows (I mean cases like <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">ct</span>, not <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">cth</span>)<br />
4). It is difficult to determine the weight of<span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i"> s</span>, but I assume that it is the largest in the dozens group, as well as more than <span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">ch</span>.<br />
<br />
I don't know what good it will do, but I did it <img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/moresmilies/angel.png" alt="Angel" title="Angel" class="smilie smilie_44" /> Well, at the very least, it perfectly demonstrates the peculiarity of the Voynichese letters. Since they can easily be assigned weights, maybe they're not letters at all, but something else... Maybe they're numbers... Maybe even You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.?<br />
<br />
<span style="font-weight: bold;" class="mycode_b">What do you think?</span>]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
		<item>
			<title><![CDATA[A mathematical approach to double words, conditional logic and the missing pages]]></title>
			<link>https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5861.html</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2026 14:46:21 +0000</pubDate>
			<dc:creator><![CDATA[<a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=profile&uid=3741">Vuk88</a>]]></dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5861.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[Hi everyone, <br />
I'm Alfredo. My background is actually in social science data analysis, but like many of you, the Voynich Manuscript has been a long-time obsession of mine. I recently had an intuition regarding its structure that I really wanted to test out.<br />
I started wondering if the manuscript is less like standard prose and more like a highly structured technical manual or data ledger. I know that's not a brand-new concept, but I wanted to see if I could find hard statistical proof of its internal grammar. Building on the Latent Semantic Analysis (LSA) research by Bowern, Layfield, and Davis (which the mods here kindly shared!), I decided to run some computational models on the EVA transliteration to hunt for deterministic rules.<br />
I specifically focused on one of the most famous statistical anomalies: the "double repetitions" (like chol chol). While it's common to dismiss these as dittography or scribal copying errors, I hypothesized something different. What if, in a highly structured document with zero punctuation, these consecutive repetitions actually act as mechanical syntactic markers? Essentially, logic gates or section delimiters.<br />
To test this, I applied Machine Learning algorithms (Logistic Regression and LSA) to analyze the words that heavily co-occur on the same pages as these doubles, looking for a mathematical correlation.<br />
The dependency turned out to be massive. These double words aren't isolated or random; they are strictly bound to specific associated words. I've attached a clustering graph below (voynich_syntax_constellation_en.png) where you can see a distinct separation.<br />
<br />
<span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">T</span>he blue and red dots represent two entirely separate grammatical families. The t-SNE algorithm segregated the vocabulary into two distinct functional 'clouds', showing a strong structural dependency. This rigid separation is the fingerprint of a highly structured system that rigorously distinguishes between different functional categories of words<br />
To find out exactly which words do this, I looked at the Logistic Regression coefficients. In the attached bar chart logistic_bar_chart_en.png, you can see these specific "syntactic triggers" isolated. The red bars highlight the exact words that heavily co-occur on the exact same pages as the double sequences, while the blue bars show the ones that mathematically inhibit them (they almost never appear together).<br />
<br />
To prove this wasn't just a coincidence, I ran a Monte Carlo Permutation Test with 1,000 iterations. Basically, I had the script completely scramble the text 1,000 times. This destroys the original word order, but keeps the raw word counts exactly the same. As you can see in the second attached graph (permutation_violin_en.png) , the randomly shuffled text completely failed to recreate the pattern (p-value = 0.0010). This proves the manuscript follows rigid conditional rules.<br />
<br />
But here is the part with the biggest codicological implications. By mapping the spatial density of these syntactic markers across the whole manuscript (see the attached graph: voynich_all_missing_density.png) , a striking coincidence emerges: the absolute highest peaks of density are concentrated exactly on the pages right next to the codicological gaps—the 14 missing folios (f12, f59-f64, f74, f91-f98, f109-f110). see the attached graph: voynich_all_missing_density.png<br />
<ul class="mycode_list"><li>A quick note on the attached graph (lsa_vs_syntax.png): This chart visually summarizes the intersection between semantic and syntactic data. The X-axis represents the manuscript folios (timeline from f1 to f116). The colored background blocks show the different thematic sections identified by the LSA algorithm (Herbal, Astronomical, etc.), separated by vertical dashed lines indicating where the topic abruptly changes. The red line represents my data: the density of the double words. As you can clearly see, almost every time there is a semantic transition (a change in topic), there is a massive red spike in syntactic double words. They act as physical boundaries between sections.<br />
</li>
</ul>
For example, one of the highest peaks in the entire book is at folio f108, right before the extraction of the final folios. This strongly supports the historical hypothesis that those removed pages contained the conversion matrices or "Tabulae" required to decode the frequent logical transitions in those sections.<br />
<br />
I recently published the full paper, the dataset, and the Python framework I used for the analysis. You can check everything out here: You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
I would love for the experts here to take a close look, test the Python framework, and offer some constructive criticism. I'm really curious to hear your thoughts on how we might use this syntactic mapping moving forward.<br />
Thanks for your time! <br />
P.S. For those who prefer a less technical read, I have also attached a simplified, non-academic summary of the theory below in PDF format.<br />
<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="PNG Image" border="0" alt=".png" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16250" target="_blank" title="">logistic_bar_chart_en_rs.png</a> (Size: 100.04 KB / Downloads: 312)
<br />
<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="PNG Image" border="0" alt=".png" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16249" target="_blank" title="">voynich_syntax_constellation_en_rs.png</a> (Size: 117.82 KB / Downloads: 312)
<br />
<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="PNG Image" border="0" alt=".png" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16247" target="_blank" title="">permutation_violin_en_rs.png</a> (Size: 70.27 KB / Downloads: 312)
<br />
<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="PNG Image" border="0" alt=".png" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16248" target="_blank" title="">voynich_all_missing_density_rs.png</a> (Size: 82.07 KB / Downloads: 312)
<br />
<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="PNG Image" border="0" alt=".png" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16259" target="_blank" title="">lsa_vs_syntax_rs.png</a> (Size: 122.81 KB / Downloads: 237)
<br />
<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/pdf.png" title="Adobe Acrobat PDF" border="0" alt=".pdf" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16256" target="_blank" title="">The Voynich Manuscript Code_.pdf</a> (Size: 464.29 KB / Downloads: 8)
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[Hi everyone, <br />
I'm Alfredo. My background is actually in social science data analysis, but like many of you, the Voynich Manuscript has been a long-time obsession of mine. I recently had an intuition regarding its structure that I really wanted to test out.<br />
I started wondering if the manuscript is less like standard prose and more like a highly structured technical manual or data ledger. I know that's not a brand-new concept, but I wanted to see if I could find hard statistical proof of its internal grammar. Building on the Latent Semantic Analysis (LSA) research by Bowern, Layfield, and Davis (which the mods here kindly shared!), I decided to run some computational models on the EVA transliteration to hunt for deterministic rules.<br />
I specifically focused on one of the most famous statistical anomalies: the "double repetitions" (like chol chol). While it's common to dismiss these as dittography or scribal copying errors, I hypothesized something different. What if, in a highly structured document with zero punctuation, these consecutive repetitions actually act as mechanical syntactic markers? Essentially, logic gates or section delimiters.<br />
To test this, I applied Machine Learning algorithms (Logistic Regression and LSA) to analyze the words that heavily co-occur on the same pages as these doubles, looking for a mathematical correlation.<br />
The dependency turned out to be massive. These double words aren't isolated or random; they are strictly bound to specific associated words. I've attached a clustering graph below (voynich_syntax_constellation_en.png) where you can see a distinct separation.<br />
<br />
<span style="font-style: italic;" class="mycode_i">T</span>he blue and red dots represent two entirely separate grammatical families. The t-SNE algorithm segregated the vocabulary into two distinct functional 'clouds', showing a strong structural dependency. This rigid separation is the fingerprint of a highly structured system that rigorously distinguishes between different functional categories of words<br />
To find out exactly which words do this, I looked at the Logistic Regression coefficients. In the attached bar chart logistic_bar_chart_en.png, you can see these specific "syntactic triggers" isolated. The red bars highlight the exact words that heavily co-occur on the exact same pages as the double sequences, while the blue bars show the ones that mathematically inhibit them (they almost never appear together).<br />
<br />
To prove this wasn't just a coincidence, I ran a Monte Carlo Permutation Test with 1,000 iterations. Basically, I had the script completely scramble the text 1,000 times. This destroys the original word order, but keeps the raw word counts exactly the same. As you can see in the second attached graph (permutation_violin_en.png) , the randomly shuffled text completely failed to recreate the pattern (p-value = 0.0010). This proves the manuscript follows rigid conditional rules.<br />
<br />
But here is the part with the biggest codicological implications. By mapping the spatial density of these syntactic markers across the whole manuscript (see the attached graph: voynich_all_missing_density.png) , a striking coincidence emerges: the absolute highest peaks of density are concentrated exactly on the pages right next to the codicological gaps—the 14 missing folios (f12, f59-f64, f74, f91-f98, f109-f110). see the attached graph: voynich_all_missing_density.png<br />
<ul class="mycode_list"><li>A quick note on the attached graph (lsa_vs_syntax.png): This chart visually summarizes the intersection between semantic and syntactic data. The X-axis represents the manuscript folios (timeline from f1 to f116). The colored background blocks show the different thematic sections identified by the LSA algorithm (Herbal, Astronomical, etc.), separated by vertical dashed lines indicating where the topic abruptly changes. The red line represents my data: the density of the double words. As you can clearly see, almost every time there is a semantic transition (a change in topic), there is a massive red spike in syntactic double words. They act as physical boundaries between sections.<br />
</li>
</ul>
For example, one of the highest peaks in the entire book is at folio f108, right before the extraction of the final folios. This strongly supports the historical hypothesis that those removed pages contained the conversion matrices or "Tabulae" required to decode the frequent logical transitions in those sections.<br />
<br />
I recently published the full paper, the dataset, and the Python framework I used for the analysis. You can check everything out here: You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
I would love for the experts here to take a close look, test the Python framework, and offer some constructive criticism. I'm really curious to hear your thoughts on how we might use this syntactic mapping moving forward.<br />
Thanks for your time! <br />
P.S. For those who prefer a less technical read, I have also attached a simplified, non-academic summary of the theory below in PDF format.<br />
<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="PNG Image" border="0" alt=".png" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16250" target="_blank" title="">logistic_bar_chart_en_rs.png</a> (Size: 100.04 KB / Downloads: 312)
<br />
<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="PNG Image" border="0" alt=".png" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16249" target="_blank" title="">voynich_syntax_constellation_en_rs.png</a> (Size: 117.82 KB / Downloads: 312)
<br />
<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="PNG Image" border="0" alt=".png" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16247" target="_blank" title="">permutation_violin_en_rs.png</a> (Size: 70.27 KB / Downloads: 312)
<br />
<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="PNG Image" border="0" alt=".png" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16248" target="_blank" title="">voynich_all_missing_density_rs.png</a> (Size: 82.07 KB / Downloads: 312)
<br />
<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/image.png" title="PNG Image" border="0" alt=".png" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16259" target="_blank" title="">lsa_vs_syntax_rs.png</a> (Size: 122.81 KB / Downloads: 237)
<br />
<br />
<img src="https://www.voynich.ninja/images/attachtypes/pdf.png" title="Adobe Acrobat PDF" border="0" alt=".pdf" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="attachment.php?aid=16256" target="_blank" title="">The Voynich Manuscript Code_.pdf</a> (Size: 464.29 KB / Downloads: 8)
]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
		<item>
			<title><![CDATA[Aanother statistical take on Voynichese]]></title>
			<link>https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5857.html</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2026 04:13:14 +0000</pubDate>
			<dc:creator><![CDATA[<a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=profile&uid=3742">kostrubaty</a>]]></dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-5857.html</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[So here's my analysis<br />
<br />
You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
Results strongly indicate that the text was generated via simple methodology (order-3 markov chain).<br />
Also this shows that there is zero measurable correlation between text and the imagery. <br />
Also text written by different "hands" all matches statistical fingerprint, which strongly suggests use of shared methodology for text generation.<br />
<br />
Does it prove anything? Guess not, however result seem to leave little to imagination.<br />
<br />
All the code necessary for replicating results, detailed findings and vl dataset is in the repo.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[So here's my analysis<br />
<br />
You are not allowed to view links. <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="https://www.voynich.ninja/member.php?action=login">Login</a> to view.<br />
<br />
Results strongly indicate that the text was generated via simple methodology (order-3 markov chain).<br />
Also this shows that there is zero measurable correlation between text and the imagery. <br />
Also text written by different "hands" all matches statistical fingerprint, which strongly suggests use of shared methodology for text generation.<br />
<br />
Does it prove anything? Guess not, however result seem to leave little to imagination.<br />
<br />
All the code necessary for replicating results, detailed findings and vl dataset is in the repo.]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
	</channel>
</rss>