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+--- Forum: Marginalia (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-45.html)
+--- Thread: Folio 66r marginalia (/thread-83.html)
RE: Folio 66r marginalia - Searcher - 25-06-2017
I'm not sure that it looks like You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. What do you think?
RE: Folio 66r marginalia - Davidsch - 26-06-2017
1.
If indeed the text there is German, we can read here:
den Mus-chel
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Herkunft:
[1] seit dem 9. Jahrhundert bezeugt; althochdeutsch: muscula; von frühromanisch *muscula entlehnt; zu lateinisch: musculus „Miesmuschel“ , eigentlich „Mäuschen, Muskel“[1]
But there is a problem with it, because I see that that word is feminine,
therefore, it must be die Muschel. But vielleicht/perhaps there is a specific Muschel which is male, so I have looked some up in Grimm's Worterbuch:
here are some male Muschel- words:
MUSCHELSAND, m. unrein gemischter sand, worin sich pulverisierte schnecken und muscheln befinden.
MUSCHELSCHLUCKER, m. wie muschelkönig.
MUSCHELSCHREIN, m. muschel einem schreine verglichen: o edelstein in meinen schachten, o perl in meinem muschelschreine.
MUSCHELSTEIN, m. myites.
MUSCHELSTRAND, m. mit muscheln bedeckter strand
MUSCHELTRÄGER, m. träger einer muschel, pilger (vergl. DWB muschel 2 und muschelhut)
If this is wrong and the word reflects the Pot shown below in German, that word is also feminine for example: "die Topf". So that is not plausible.
---------- or:
2.
den MUS-EN
verb. mus essen und machen; mhd. muosen, speise bereiten und mahlzeit halten. Lexer wb. 1, 2240 fg.; in Baiern muesen, gekochte speise essen und kochen. Schm. 1, 1676 Fromm.; schwäb. musen, brei, mus essen, auch dem mastvieh futter geben, in den Allgäuer alpen, wenn regen und schnee die hütung unterbricht. Schmid 395; schweiz. mueszen, brei oder hafergrütze kochen. Stalder 2, 223; reflexiv sich musen, zu mus werden: so muszet esz sich schon. kuchenmeisterei a 7; so muszet esz sich gar wol und stet schon. a 8.
So not the female Muse (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.,
but MUSEN: eine malzeit halten, (altdeutsch, 1130-50), Speisen derived from Muose/muosjan/muoson (ex. milich dâ man mite muosit diu chint)
Which sounds very plausable to me with the context of the image,
where we see someone who is resting. Perhaps after a meal, good or bad.
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3.
Furthermore, when "Miel, Mel or Meel" is written, here is a piece of text that talks about Meel (flour). (Amelmeel is a sort of flour from spelt) in German.
KRÄUTERBUCH VON JACOBUS THEODORUS "TABERNAEMONTANUS" ANNO 1625: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
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4.
If the words are "y den mus ..." then I found no other examples than "den mus er" or "den mus man" and found it therefore a bit unlikely
see for example
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RE: Folio 66r marginalia - -JKP- - 26-06-2017
(25-06-2017, 11:36 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm not sure that it looks like You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. What do you think?
I think it's "muß" but even if it's "mus", in this time and place they were often the same thing.
RE: Folio 66r marginalia - Anton - 26-06-2017
Quote:I think it's "muß"
The VMS is a bit too early to feature the Eszett, is not it?
RE: Folio 66r marginalia - -JKP- - 26-06-2017
(26-06-2017, 01:36 AM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote:I think it's "muß"
The VMS is a bit too early to feature the Eszett, is not it?
I have many examples from 12th- to 14th-century documents. The shape was certainly in use.
But when it came to mean a double-ess is hard to tell because there were no hard-and-fast spelling rules in those days. It's very difficult to tell if they meant one ess or two because they would often spell almost any word in several different ways in the same document and sometimes even in the same sentence. It frequently represented one ess (perhaps descended from Greek sigma with the top loop rounded), and sometimes two.
Here are some samples I grabbed from my library (most of them from the 13th and 14th centuries). These are mostly proto-Gothic and Gothic cursive scripts, most of them in germanic documents written in German or Latin:
![[Image: EszettSamples.png]](http://voynichportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/EszettSamples.png)
RE: Folio 66r marginalia - -JKP- - 17-10-2018
Darn it, I just noticed that I labeled that pic "Eszett" but only the first one is a true eszett. The ones that follow are mostly final-ess, although some stand for two esses and some for one. They weren't very consistent about whether they spelled something with single or double ess.
RE: Folio 66r marginalia - -JKP- - 17-10-2018
I thought I would post this pic as an example of how "mel" was used to mean honey.
A long time ago another researcher disagreed with me that "mel" could mean honey, but it was spelled quite a few ways, and this is definitely honey (the hives are in the back and the label says "mel"):
![[Image: MelHoneyBarrelNAL16l73.png]](https://voynichportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/MelHoneyBarrelNAL16l73.png)
BNF NAL 1673
There clearly are good arguments for several interpretations, including grain/flour/porridge and portion/measure, but honey needs to be included too. It is mentioned very frequently in medieval remedies and the stuff in the little VMS pot is amber (which could be many things, including urine or rough-grain porridge, but one possibility is honey).
RE: Folio 66r marginalia - Paris - 17-10-2018
(17-10-2018, 08:43 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.A long time ago another researcher disagreed with me that "mel" could mean honey,
I agree with that person.
Honey is translated in latin "mel, mellis".
Honey is translated in french "miel"
RE: Folio 66r marginalia - -JKP- - 17-10-2018
I said honey was sometimes spelled "mel". The other person told me, "No, honey is not spelled mel. Mel means flour."
I agreed that mel also means flour, but that honey was also sometimes spelled that way and he said, "No, honey is not spelled that way."
So, that is why I posted the picture. Honey is sometimes spelled "mel".
RE: Folio 66r marginalia - bi3mw - 04-01-2019
Maybe farfetched, but one way to interpret the scene in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is the use a soporific sponge ( spongia somnifera ). In the Middle Ages, an anesthetic was made from various ingredients, such as henbane, Indian hemp, mandragora, opium, hemlock, and wine. The sponge was soaked in it and given to the patient. The effect of anesthesia was often fatal (apnea, blood congestion) because the dosage was difficult.
So we have a vessel with the anesthetic, the soporific sponge and a sponge soaked in vinegar to help wake up.