(29-09-2016, 07:28 PM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Well I just broke tradition with my method these are the first phrases ever decoded from the Voynich Manuscript.  I had to get into the mind of John Dee a bit for this and with my knowledge and History of the Voynich it looks pretty clear what happened.  John Dee wanted a great deal of Gold or needed it so he fooled Rudolf II.  Rudolf was a depressed King who perhaps was enchanted with Dee and maybe the text was like an anti-depressant or an escape from his melancholy.



...

(29-09-2016, 07:33 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(29-09-2016, 07:28 PM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Well I just broke tradition with my method these are the first phrases ever decoded from the Voynich Manuscript.  I had to get into the mind of John Dee a bit for this and with my knowledge and History of the Voynich it looks pretty clear what happened.  John Dee wanted a great deal of Gold or needed it so he fooled Rudolf II.  Rudolf was a depressed King who perhaps was enchanted with Dee and maybe the text was like an anti-depressant or an escape from his melancholy.



...

Actually, John Dee was being housed quite comfortably first by a prince, then by the emperor, and then by a count in his castle at the time he was in Rudolph's vicinity. His son remembers those years at the castle as happy years. Dee wasn't desperate for money. In fact he spent money quite liberally to get there and to get home again. It wasn't until later in his life that he was selling off his plate and that was long after he returned to England.

He was also a very pious man [and somewhat gullible] and genuinely believed in what he was trying to do. It would be out of character for him to try to dupe someone. Kelley (Talbot), on the other hand, was a scoundrel.

If you want to get into the mind of John Dee, maybe you should do some research first.

Quote:In 1583, Dee met the visiting Polish nobleman Albert Łaski, who invited Dee to accompany him on his return to Poland.  With some prompting by the angels, Dee was persuaded to go. Dee, Kelley, and their families left for the Continent in September 1583, but Łaski proved to be bankrupt and out of favour in his own country.  Dee and Kelley began a nomadic life in Central Europe, but they continued their spiritual conferences, which Dee recorded meticulously.  He had audiences with Emperor Rudolf II and King Stephen of Poland in which he chided them for their ungodliness and attempted to convince them of the importance of his angelic communications. He was not taken up   by either monarch.

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Quote:n 1583, Dee met the visiting impoverished yet popular You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. nobleman You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. who, after overstaying his welcome at court, invited Dee to accompany him on his return to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. With some prompting by the "angels" (again through Kelley) and his worsening status at court, Dee was persuaded to go. Dee, Kelley and their families left for the Continent in September 1583, but Łaski proved to be bankrupt and out of favour in his own country.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Dee and Kelley began aYou are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. life in Central Europe, meanwhile continuing their spiritual conferences, which Dee recorded meticulously in his diaries and almanacs.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. They had audiences with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. of Poland whom they attempted to convince of the importance of angelic communication. The meeting with the Polish King, Stefan Batory, took place at the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (near You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., then the capital of Poland) and was later widely analyzed by Polish historians (Ryszard Zieliński, Roman Żelewski, Roman Bugaj) and writers (Waldemar Łysiak).[You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.] While generally Dee was accepted as a man of wide and deep knowledge, they mistrusted his connection with the English monarch, Elizabeth I. They could not be sure that their meetings were without political ramifications. Some thought (and still do) that Dee was in fact a spy for the British monarch. Nevertheless, the Polish King, a devout Catholic and very cautious of supernatural media, began their meeting(s) with the affirmation that any prophetic revelations must be in keeping with the teachings of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., the mission of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., and the approval of the Pope.

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(29-09-2016, 07:52 PM)ThomasCoon Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I guess my main question to Stellar is - how do you know that those words are supposed to be "gold coin" and "six hundred", and not any of the other things that could also be =1 in numerology? There are literally thousands of things that could =1 in your system.

(29-09-2016, 07:33 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.He was also a very pious man [and somewhat gullible] and genuinely believed in what he was trying to do. It would be out of character for him to try to dupe someone. Kelley (Talbot), on the other hand, was a scoundrel.

(29-09-2016, 07:46 PM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(29-09-2016, 07:33 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(29-09-2016, 07:28 PM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Well I just broke tradition with my method these are the first phrases ever decoded from the Voynich Manuscript.  I had to get into the mind of John Dee a bit for this and with my knowledge and History of the Voynich it looks pretty clear what happened.  John Dee wanted a great deal of Gold or needed it so he fooled Rudolf II.  Rudolf was a depressed King who perhaps was enchanted with Dee and maybe the text was like an anti-depressant or an escape from his melancholy.



...

Actually, John Dee was being housed quite comfortably first by a prince, then by the emperor, and then by a count in his castle at the time he was in Rudolph's vicinity. His son remembers those years at the castle as happy years. Dee wasn't desperate for money. In fact he spent money quite liberally to get there and to get home again. It wasn't until later in his life that he was selling off his plate and that was long after he returned to England.

He was also a very pious man [and somewhat gullible] and genuinely believed in what he was trying to do. It would be out of character for him to try to dupe someone. Kelley (Talbot), on the other hand, was a scoundrel.

If you want to get into the mind of John Dee, maybe you should do some research first.

This may imply he needed money or was it greed?

Quote:In 1583, Dee met the visiting Polish nobleman Albert Łaski, who invited Dee to accompany him on his return to Poland.  With some prompting by the angels, Dee was persuaded to go. Dee, Kelley, and their families left for the Continent in September 1583, but Łaski proved to be bankrupt and out of favour in his own country.  Dee and Kelley began a nomadic life in Central Europe, but they continued their spiritual conferences, which Dee recorded meticulously.  He had audiences with Emperor Rudolf II and King Stephen of Poland in which he chided them for their ungodliness and attempted to convince them of the importance of his angelic communications. He was not taken up   by either monarch.

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There could have been a number of reasons he did it!  Maybe he dislike King Rudolf II.

Quote:n 1583, Dee met the visiting impoverished yet popular You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. nobleman You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. who, after overstaying his welcome at court, invited Dee to accompany him on his return to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. With some prompting by the "angels" (again through Kelley) and his worsening status at court, Dee was persuaded to go. Dee, Kelley and their families left for the Continent in September 1583, but Łaski proved to be bankrupt and out of favour in his own country.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Dee and Kelley began aYou are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. life in Central Europe, meanwhile continuing their spiritual conferences, which Dee recorded meticulously in his diaries and almanacs.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. They had audiences with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. of Poland whom they attempted to convince of the importance of angelic communication. The meeting with the Polish King, Stefan Batory, took place at the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (near You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., then the capital of Poland) and was later widely analyzed by Polish historians (Ryszard Zieliński, Roman Żelewski, Roman Bugaj) and writers (Waldemar Łysiak).[You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.] While generally Dee was accepted as a man of wide and deep knowledge, they mistrusted his connection with the English monarch, Elizabeth I. They could not be sure that their meetings were without political ramifications. Some thought (and still do) that Dee was in fact a spy for the British monarch. Nevertheless, the Polish King, a devout Catholic and very cautious of supernatural media, began their meeting(s) with the affirmation that any prophetic revelations must be in keeping with the teachings of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., the mission of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., and the approval of the Pope.

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(29-09-2016, 08:02 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(29-09-2016, 07:33 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.He was also a very pious man [and somewhat gullible] and genuinely believed in what he was trying to do. It would be out of character for him to try to dupe someone. Kelley (Talbot), on the other hand, was a scoundrel.

It turns out that this can be accommodated.

Edward = 5 + 4 + 5 + 1 + 9 + 4 = 28  -> 1

So ydaraiShy is really Edward Kelly. No need to adopt one of several ways to spell the Welsh variety of John.

(29-09-2016, 08:04 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(29-09-2016, 07:46 PM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(29-09-2016, 07:33 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(29-09-2016, 07:28 PM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Well I just broke tradition with my method these are the first phrases ever decoded from the Voynich Manuscript.  I had to get into the mind of John Dee a bit for this and with my knowledge and History of the Voynich it looks pretty clear what happened.  John Dee wanted a great deal of Gold or needed it so he fooled Rudolf II.  Rudolf was a depressed King who perhaps was enchanted with Dee and maybe the text was like an anti-depressant or an escape from his melancholy.



...

Actually, John Dee was being housed quite comfortably first by a prince, then by the emperor, and then by a count in his castle at the time he was in Rudolph's vicinity. His son remembers those years at the castle as happy years. Dee wasn't desperate for money. In fact he spent money quite liberally to get there and to get home again. It wasn't until later in his life that he was selling off his plate and that was long after he returned to England.

He was also a very pious man [and somewhat gullible] and genuinely believed in what he was trying to do. It would be out of character for him to try to dupe someone. Kelley (Talbot), on the other hand, was a scoundrel.

If you want to get into the mind of John Dee, maybe you should do some research first.

This may imply he needed money or was it greed?

Quote:In 1583, Dee met the visiting Polish nobleman Albert Łaski, who invited Dee to accompany him on his return to Poland.  With some prompting by the angels, Dee was persuaded to go. Dee, Kelley, and their families left for the Continent in September 1583, but Łaski proved to be bankrupt and out of favour in his own country.  Dee and Kelley began a nomadic life in Central Europe, but they continued their spiritual conferences, which Dee recorded meticulously.  He had audiences with Emperor Rudolf II and King Stephen of Poland in which he chided them for their ungodliness and attempted to convince them of the importance of his angelic communications. He was not taken up   by either monarch.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

There could have been a number of reasons he did it!  Maybe he dislike King Rudolf II.

Quote:n 1583, Dee met the visiting impoverished yet popular You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. nobleman You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. who, after overstaying his welcome at court, invited Dee to accompany him on his return to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. With some prompting by the "angels" (again through Kelley) and his worsening status at court, Dee was persuaded to go. Dee, Kelley and their families left for the Continent in September 1583, but Łaski proved to be bankrupt and out of favour in his own country.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Dee and Kelley began aYou are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. life in Central Europe, meanwhile continuing their spiritual conferences, which Dee recorded meticulously in his diaries and almanacs.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. They had audiences with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. of Poland whom they attempted to convince of the importance of angelic communication. The meeting with the Polish King, Stefan Batory, took place at the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (near You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., then the capital of Poland) and was later widely analyzed by Polish historians (Ryszard Zieliński, Roman Żelewski, Roman Bugaj) and writers (Waldemar Łysiak).[You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.] While generally Dee was accepted as a man of wide and deep knowledge, they mistrusted his connection with the English monarch, Elizabeth I. They could not be sure that their meetings were without political ramifications. Some thought (and still do) that Dee was in fact a spy for the British monarch. Nevertheless, the Polish King, a devout Catholic and very cautious of supernatural media, began their meeting(s) with the affirmation that any prophetic revelations must be in keeping with the teachings of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., the mission of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., and the approval of the Pope.

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Stellar, there are good ways to do research and bad ways to [attempt] to do research.


I've done quite a lot of research on John Dee and I still feel that I see only the tip of the iceberg.

Looking up something on Wikipedia is not enough. Often the information there is contributed by people with no experience in research and without fact-checking. Some of it is good, some of it is not. You need to consult multiple sources (which can sometimes take days, months, or years) and then compare and contrast the opinions, back it up with original source material, and then make up your mind.


Also, good research means gathering data and seeing where it leads. It's bad research to make an assumption and then gather only those bits of information that seem to support that assumption. Starting with an assumption tends to give you tunnel vision, even if you are a good researcher. Starting with no preconceptions is generally better and more objective.

You are supporting your own idea that John Dee did it, that's clear from your response. Instead you should be looking at the data and asking yourself WHO could have done it (which might NOT be John Dee) and was there actually a hoax? 

For example, Kelley was a rogue, a scoundrel who duped many people (including John Dee). Why would you think Dee would perpetrate a hoax on Rudolph II when he was a pious man and seen as genuine by his contemporaries, when Edward Talbot (Kelley) was known to have committed fraud on many occasions?


In fact, there isn't any proof yet that Rudolph bought the VMS or that he bought it from Dee. We only know that the manuscript was rumored to have been purchased by Rudolph II and that the name of someone in his court was on the first page. Maybe it was Jacobi de Tepenecz who created it. John Dee had very little interest in plants. Jacobi was very interested in plants.


You've been discussing it as a hoax on other threads, but maybe it's not a hoax. Maybe it was passed down to someone in Rudolph's court (assuming it was in Rudolph's court) and is a genuine document from another source. It may have been seen by Dee but not necessarily possessed by Dee.