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+--- Thread: Rich SantaColoma and his Forgery Theory (/thread-736.html)
Rich SantaColoma and his Forgery Theory - stellar - 11-09-2016
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Walk careful in the night and dream what you may, Mr. Voynich is your worst nighmare.
I just read about the possibility that the Voynich Manuscript maybe a forgery attempt by Wilfrid Voynich himself using old Calf Skin Vellum. Rich's argument seems strong to me in that the imagery like the galaxy, microscope and Armadillo all come from a later time period. We are all struggling here to find meaning in the text of the Voynich Manuscript and if it is a forgery along with the text representing a giant null. Then how do you feel about your time on this project?
In my opinion the best starting point for a cipher to find meaning in the text is the picture of garlic in folio 99r yet if you go down that path; the languages of Europe make no sense! Perhaps not the best place to start, but it sure does look like garlic.
I'm sure Mr. Voynich would be familiar with this place as he studied there.
![[Image: CsCX-NiUAAEpnaL.jpg]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CsCX-NiUAAEpnaL.jpg)
![[Image: CsCYURsVIAAFTk5.jpg]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CsCYURsVIAAFTk5.jpg)
RE: Rich SantaColoma and his Forgery Theory - -JKP- - 11-09-2016
[quote pid='5823' dateline='1473558768']
stellarYou are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Walk careful in the night and dream what you may, Mr. Voynich is your worst nighmare.
I just read about the possibility that the Voynich Manuscript maybe a forgery attempt by Wilfrid Voynich himself using old Calf Skin Vellum. Rich's argument seems strong to me in that the imagery like the galaxy, microscope and Armadillo all come from a later time period.
I suspect that's because the people who see them that way come from a later time period and we tend to see things that we can relate to, that are more familiar to us. There are also people who interpret them differently.
We are all struggling here to find meaning in the text of the Voynich Manuscript and if it is a forgery along with the text representing a giant null. Then how do you feel about your time on this project?
I don't believe it's a forgery. I think it's possible that it's an imperfect transcription of something that was originally in another language, or an attempt to record information in a novel way or self-invented alphabet. After extensive analysis I also firmly believe it's not random (not even close). That doesn't automatically mean it's meaningful but it is clearly set down in a systematic way. I've learned a bucketload of things about history I didn't know before I discovered the VMS, so I consider the journey worthwhile regardless of the final verdict on Beinecke 408.
In my opinion the best starting point for a cipher to find meaning in the text is the picture of garlic in folio 99r yet if you go down that path; the languages of Europe make no sense! Perhaps not the best place to start, but it sure does look like garlic.
I think there are many possible starting points for exploring this manuscript. That may be one of them but keep in mind that while the labels share some characteristics with the rest of the text, they may not be set down using the same system. Even the text itself, without the images, is worth studying.
I'm sure Mr. Voynich would be familiar with this place as he studied there.
[/quote]
The Kremlin architecture post-dates the VMS and if you look at those globes, they have feet like the containers in the small plants section, and the two outer ones have very narrow waists. It's pretty unusual for onion-dome towers to have feet and extreme narrowing (how do you fit the staircase?).
RE: Rich SantaColoma and his Forgery Theory - Tisquesusa - 11-09-2016
(11-09-2016, 02:52 AM)tellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Walk careful in the night and dream what you may, Mr. Voynich is your worst nighmare.
I just read about the possibility that the Voynich Manuscript maybe a forgery attempt by Wilfrid Voynich himself using old Calf Skin Vellum. Rich's argument seems strong to me in that the imagery like the galaxy, microscope and Armadillo all come from a later time period. We are all struggling here to find meaning in the text of the Voynich Manuscript and if it is a forgery along with the text representing a giant null. Then how do you feel about your time on this project?
In my opinion the best starting point for a cipher to find meaning in the text is the picture of garlic in folio 99r yet if you go down that path; the languages of Europe make no sense! Perhaps not the best place to start, but it sure does look like garlic.
I'm sure Mr. Voynich would be familiar with this place as he studied there.
Thanks, stellar, for the link. I think this view is the most consistent and informed view by a self-proclaimed non-expert. Fresh and it makes the most sense.
It also answers my questions that I had in the beginning; the C14 analysis of the vellum doesn't say anything about the date of creation of the MS without assessment of the ink and/or paint. It only means it should have been made AFTER 1410-40, but that is not the problem.
It answers so many other points, a phrase by Coloma that struck me was (2nd blog post):
Quote:Well maybe as far as to feel it loosely falls into the category I’ve often noted: Something looks a lot like something we know, but is just different enough to keep us guessing as to what it really is.
Exactly! And that's the explanation why there is no progress after 100 years about almost anything.
There are other factors that to me point to the forgery theory, but SantaColoma has done a great job in proposing this idea and it makes sense.
I foresee everyone here burning him down, but that has a psychological basis; you wouldn't want to admit it's a forgery after all the time you invested in the idea it is real.
I have had this fight within myself with other things that appeared to be faked, forged and hoaxed and so am used to it. There is much more faked than real in many areas, and René should know what I am talking about...
RE: Rich SantaColoma and his Forgery Theory - Koen G - 11-09-2016
(11-09-2016, 05:08 PM)Tisquesusa Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There is much more faked than real in many areas, and René should know what I am talking about...
Which areas exactly are we talking about here?
RE: Rich SantaColoma and his Forgery Theory - EllieV - 11-09-2016
Hi stellar, if you want extensive discussion on Rich's forgery theory you will enjoy the VMs mail list. Every topic you bring here in your post is discussed there ad nauseum over and over again.
I personally keep an open mind about the VMs being a forgery. If there is new evidence about it - I would love to hear it. Rich's theories are old news and have been discussed for years.
RE: Rich SantaColoma and his Forgery Theory - Anton - 11-09-2016
I would like to add that the picture above is not from the Kremlin, but of the Cathedral of Basil the Blessed, built in the middle of 16th century under the rule of Ivan the Terrible. It is situated on the Red Square.
RE: Rich SantaColoma and his Forgery Theory - -JKP- - 12-09-2016
(11-09-2016, 06:57 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I would like to add that the picture above is not from the Kremlin, but of the Cathedral of Basil the Blessed, built in the middle of 16th century under the rule of Ivan the Terrible. It is situated on the Red Square.
Even though it's outside the main compound, it's my understanding that the cathedral has always been considered part of the Kremlin.
It doesn't hurt to identify it specifically by name, however, on a site that's devoted to history.
RE: Rich SantaColoma and his Forgery Theory - Anton - 12-09-2016
Quote:Even though it's outside the main compound, it's my understanding that the cathedral has always been considered part of the Kremlin.
No, Kremlin is what's inside the Kremlin wall, and this cathedral is not considered part of the Kremlin. Likewise, the Lenin mausoleum is neither. The cathedral was built to commemorate the conquest of Kazan, and it is considered to resemble the "Heavenly Jerusalem".
RE: Rich SantaColoma and his Forgery Theory - -JKP- - 12-09-2016
(12-09-2016, 01:31 AM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote:Even though it's outside the main compound, it's my understanding that the cathedral has always been considered part of the Kremlin.
No, Kremlin is what's inside the Kremlin wall, and this cathedral is not considered part of the Kremlin. Likewise, the Lenin mausoleum is neither. The cathedral was built to commemorate the conquest of Qazan, and it is considered to resemble the "Heavenly Jerusalem".
Wow, I've been misinformed all these years. Let me just look around. I've seen it referred to as part of the Kremlin (even though I'm aware that it's outside the walls) for so long I never thought to question it.
Okay, I'm back. Many people refer to it as part of the Kremlin so that must be where I got the idea. Also, I noticed this in Wiki. It doesn't say it's technically part of the Kremlin but it does point out that people see it iconically associated with the Kremlin:
The church has been part of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. UNESCO You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. since 1990.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. It is not actually within the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., but often served as a visual You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for Russia in western media throughout the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
So, I guess it isn't part of the Kremlin. Well... learn something new every day.
Unfortunately, I've never had the chance to see Russia. I made it to eastern Hungary and eastern Germany, but never to Russia.
RE: Rich SantaColoma and his Forgery Theory - Anton - 12-09-2016
I've been residing five kilometers from the place for 30+ years, so you may rely on this my description
It stands on the edge of the Red Square, and the adjacent outer space is called "Vassiljevskiy spusk" = "The slope of Basil" - a popular place for mass gatherings like political meetings or entertainment shows.