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+--- Thread: The "gallows" characters (/thread-70.html)
RE: The "gallows" characters - Anton - 19-06-2017
Does anybody have a list of all occurrences of dotted gallows? Or, at least, some examples other than f14v.
The first character of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. illustrates what I mean. I think there are some others elsewhere...
RE: The "gallows" characters - -JKP- - 19-06-2017
(19-06-2017, 09:12 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Does anybody have a list of all occurrences of dotted gallows? Or, at least, some examples other than f14v.
The first character of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. illustrates what I mean. I think there are some others elsewhere...
I collected a couple of dozen ascenders but unfortunately it was a long time ago before I started keeping track of folio numbers.
There's one with dots inside the curlicues, one with an unusual curlicue, a couple with stripes instead of dots, a couple with dots.
There are also some that I strongly suspect are "combination" gallows. Instead of putting two side-by-side, I suspect what they represent is two or sometimes three ascenders stacked one on top of the other—another topic I was going to blog about but can't due to insufficient time (very frustrating).
When I was collecting them, I separated them into three groups, embellished, combination, and straddle ascenders but I never posted it because I needed to hunt up the folio numbers and double-check everything, so I'm posting it here in raw, unchecked form (these are only examples, there are quite a few in the collection that aren't included):
![[Image: AscenderStyles.png]](http://voynichportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/AscenderStyles.png)
RE: The "gallows" characters - Anton - 19-06-2017
Thanks -JKP-, not so many examples as would be sufficient to check the idea... anyway here's what I meant, for what it's worth.
My idea is that dots are placed as some intermediate reminders. Less probable for stripes, cause they are in groups by three (dunno why).
The reminders provide the number of base shapes embraced by this particular instance of gallows coverage.
To make it fit, we need to return from my complex composite scheme (drafted in the separate thread) to the less complex Brian's "base shape + tail modifier" CLS which assumes that neither o nor a nor q are composites. In other words, let's treat them as single characters here.
So for your figure 1 (counting left to right, top to bottom):
The dots are seven.
The gallows have multiple loops but I assume that the first gallows coverage embraces "aiind".
Let's count: a + i + i + i + tail modifier + e + tail modifier. Seven shapes.
For your figure 2 (this is f14v).
The dots are twelve.
dychoiin is decomposed as: e + tail modifier + e + tail modifier + e + head modifier (dash) + e + o + i + i + i + tail modifier. Voila - twelve they are.
Figure 3. Here we deal with stripes in groups by three, so actually they are unlikely to serve as reminders, but let's count.
Here the coverage is difficult to project, not certain if it includes k or not, I incline to it not covering k, just there was not enough space below the l to fit the loop, so the guy placed it in between the vords of the preceeding line.
Twelve stripes, let's count the shapes. orain ol qo = 12 shapes.
Figure 4. Nine stripes and a dot. Should it mean nine or ten? Anyway. ykedy counts nine if k is treated as vertical plus a tail mod.
Too few instances to make it significatly more persuasive than gematria, but I like the idea, especially with dots. That's why I asked
RE: The "gallows" characters - Wladimir D - 20-06-2017
Correction for JKP / On new scans (f90v2), the tail of the gallows P forms a new loop.
Anton, there are points also on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and f113r.
RE: The "gallows" characters - -JKP- - 20-06-2017
Anton, that's a very interesting way of looking at it.
RE: The "gallows" characters - Anton - 20-06-2017
Quote:Anton, there are points also on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and f113r.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - not sure what is going here at all... Why the gallows is so very ornate, to begin with? Nine loops, but dots are only in seven or eight of them. What is covered is cho cto, which counts as nine, if we consider t as q plus tail modifier. If we consider it a single shape, then it would be eight, but that would contradict our decomposition of k in my previous post. On the other hand, sheey which is situated right beneath the ornate part of the gallows is decomposed into exactly eight primitives.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - this shape is highly non-standard, I would not even call it gallows. Hence I would not say if it "covers" something or not. If yes, then it covers ch, which is decomposed into three shapes (which nicely corresponds to three dots).
To summarize, the idea is that the guy counted base shapes situated right beneath the gallows, and, in order not to lose his count, he placed dots (and maybe also stripes) into the respective gallows. Why is the count important, and for what purpose, I'm at a loss to suggest. Also, it is hard to tell, why, with so comparatively many occurrences of gallows coverage, the dots/stripes are basically very rare - like if counting was required only in some particular cases.
RE: The "gallows" characters - -JKP- - 20-06-2017
There is also this one (once again I don't have the folio number) which is both a straddle and embellished glyph:
And this might be of interest, from CLM 3835:
Also, I have found a precedence for the one with dots inside the loops in a hand very similar to the VMS scribe's hand, but I cannot immediately find it. If it turns up, I will post it.
RE: The "gallows" characters - ReneZ - 20-06-2017
(20-06-2017, 10:34 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There is also this one (once again I don't have the folio number) which is both a straddle and embellished glyph:
That's line 11 on f102r2
RE: The "gallows" characters - Anton - 20-06-2017
f102r2: not certain whether there are 10 or 11 dots. One can count eleven supposing that dots 5 and 6 are very close to each other, otherwise it would be ten.
chol dch decomposes into eleven base shapes if EVA ch is treated here as e - dash - e (and not e - dash - dash - e).