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The "gallows" characters - Printable Version

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RE: The "gallows" characters - VViews - 01-06-2016

(01-06-2016, 03:43 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Voynichese says that kek exists on 102r2 but i think that's wrong.

Has anyone spotted any word with more than 1 gallow character ?

Hi Davidsch,
there are quite a lot of vords that display multiple gallows characters in the Voynich... or do you mean just the ones that have the same gallow character repeated within a vord?


RE: The "gallows" characters - don of tallahassee - 01-06-2016

Hi,

A quick check of my list of words with rarer glyphs shows:

ypchocfy           on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
shckhcfy           on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
pchocty            on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
cphhofy             on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
shckhhcphy      on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
tccky                on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I don't think the list has been checked for accuracy. Does this help any?

Somewhere I think I have a list of all of Professor Stolfi's listed words with 2 glyphs, but cannot find it at the moment. I will send it if I can find it.

Don of Tallahassee


RE: The "gallows" characters - Davidsch - 14-06-2016

Thank you. Never mind,  i was looking for a specific combination, but at this point i have found another angle


RE: The "gallows" characters - Wladimir D - 24-06-2016

Glagolitic and Cyrillic occurred by borrowing and the subsequent transformation of the Greek alphabet. (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ).

Coptic alphabet is also derived from the Greek. Look at how “R” creates ligatures (of concepts, terms). Similar  to the use of gallows "K" or "T" in VMS.


RE: The "gallows" characters - Diane - 26-06-2016

Job,
with genuine respect -

the Voynich manuscript has many points in common with a considerable number of manuscript traditions.  Whether one opts for one tradition or another tends (among Voynich people) to depend most on the person's inclination to a theory - because they seek no more widely than their preference indicates.  Those who hope it might be German look at German manuscripts and see German glyphs.  Those who look elsewhere (as Thomas Spande looks to Armenia) tend to see letter forms as similar to Armenian etc.

The same for efforts to claim "nationality" for the images.  People pull up pictures from German works if they like a German theory, and from French works, and even from Spanish and English manuscripts..

Overall, the sort of evidence a scholar would trust about any other manuscript has always clearly and definitely pointed elsewhere.   Not even Irwin Panofsky's opinion in 1931 suggested the work was a German manuscript, or even a Latin German manuscript. If anyone who has ever claimed to comment on Beinecke MS 408 was a true expert in medieval German Christian art it was he, at that time, and if anyone of his eminence could identify a lack of German Christian characteristics, it was he.

For me, his opinion when added to that of Steele, the Keeper of Manuscripts in England, and Goldschmidt is still fairly unarguable about the content. As for manufacture, the indications are fairly strong that northern Italy (I'd say more exactly the Veneto) is the most probable. 

Against the more weighty opinions (in which I'm  not counting mine or Pelling's) we have only theorists and (excuse my frankness) amateurs with a theory to hone and a very narrow range of comparative study.   On balance, the German idea isn't well supported by the manuscript's own testimony or by the sort of people who can be termed experts in some relevant discipline.  I wish we had less theory and more written appraisals by unsolicited, wholly independent, professionals. 

Perhaps one day. If the theory-driven Voynicheros will keep out of it. If...


RE: The "gallows" characters - R. Sale - 26-06-2016

Pardon me, but if you want to include the extraterrestrial and time-travel theories among the amateur lot, then clearly you've got a big head start. However, the professional side has also had some fairly spectacular misinterpretations and failures of interpretation as well. Even professionals are limited by their fields of expertise.

There is also a problem with the VMs in that the enigmatic nature of the manuscript is such that it is difficult to gain sufficient purchase and understanding of the contents for a professional investigator to stake her/his reputation, without a good deal of work and small prospect of success - given ongoing history of such investigations, the wacko theories already associated with the VMs, etc., etc.

Perhaps it may be interesting to consider that the enigmatic nature of the VMs is just that. The ms. is intentionally enigmatic. Made to be enigmatic - like a tortoise closed up in its shell. Not like a rock, which is rock trough and through, but like an egg in a shell, that cannot be cracked by force, but only by the understanding of what the text contains.


RE: The "gallows" characters - Anton - 12-09-2016

Just noted a couple of unusual gallows: see f24r, first vords of lines 7 and 10. This may be called "lame t". Apparently the scribing approach here is like qo, but it is not qo.


RE: The "gallows" characters - Emma May Smith - 12-09-2016

There are so many examples of [q] where the character looks exactly like the left half of [t], and many like you describe where the left half of a [t] looks like a [q]. There must have been some connection between the two characters in the writer's head. Either the strokes were exactly the same and so he made the mistake unconsciously, or that there was some link between their meaning and the writer became confused as to which one he wanted.

I'm agnostic over whether there is a link between [q] and gallows characters, but would be happy to hear any theories or further insights.


RE: The "gallows" characters - Wladimir D - 12-09-2016

ANTON

I also drew attention to them. There is also a similar case. I am in doubt. There can be exists symbols small gallows T and K = z (EVA)?
Or is it a "q" + code 188 (v101).


RE: The "gallows" characters - ThomasCoon - 12-09-2016

(12-09-2016, 04:37 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There are so many examples of [q] where the character looks exactly like the left half of [t], and many like you describe where the left half of a [t] looks like a [q]. There must have been some connection between the two characters in the writer's head. Either the strokes were exactly the same and so he made the mistake unconsciously, or that there was some link between their meaning and the writer became confused as to which one he wanted.

I'm agnostic over whether there is a link between [q] and gallows characters, but would be happy to hear any theories or further insights.

I've wondered about that theory also. You are definitely right that they look similar. I wonder though if we do the same thing when we write our own alphabet: for example the change between [O] and [Q] or between [b,p,g,q] or [v,w] - or even [r,n,m]...