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The "gallows" characters - Printable Version

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RE: The "gallows" characters - Davidsch - 26-02-2016

Thank you -Job-

>>You seem to be completely misinterpreting the results i posted.

I agree. But that is the reason i asked for explanation. 

I still do not understand what you mean, i apologize for that.

You write:
" higher character replaceability values" 
" valid substitutions "

Can you give an example of a replacement, what is valid and what is invalid?


RE: The "gallows" characters - Anton - 26-02-2016

(19-02-2016, 05:59 AM)-Job- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Why is it that the VM's character entropy is relatively low, yet the word variability is relatively high?

Out of the box, this would be observed when vords stand for words, but characters as we discern them are not letters. Please check You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for discussion.


RE: The "gallows" characters - -Job- - 27-02-2016

(26-02-2016, 01:49 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thank you -Job-

>>You seem to be completely misinterpreting the results i posted.

I agree. But that is the reason i asked for explanation. 

I still do not understand what you mean, i apologize for that.

You write:
" higher character replaceability values" 
" valid substitutions "

Can you give an example of a replacement, what is valid and what is invalid?

Pliny's Natural History contains the words numerosis and malis. Both contain an m.

If m is replaced with s, we get nuserosis and salis. The word nuserosis does not occur in Pliny. The word salis does.

If we repeat this process for all words in Pliny's Natural History which contain an m then we find that, 7% of the time, a replacement of m with s results in a word like salis (i.e. in a word which does occur in Pliny's Natural History).

The remaining 93% yields words like nuserosis, which are not used in Pliny's Natural History. I picked nuserosis as an example and it happens to be an invalid Latin word (AFAIK). However, in some cases, a replacement of m with s results in valid Latin word which is simply not used in Pliny's Natural History. No distinction is made between these two cases.

In the results i posted, a replacement of m with s is valid about 7% of the time. That is, 7% of the words in Pliny which contain an m still occur in Pliny if m is replaced by s.

Among the sample Latin texts analyzed, 7% is among the highest values for character replacements. In the Voynich Manuscript we see several character replacements that yield more than 30% valid words.

In fact, in the VM, replacing m with r yields a known word about 50% of the time. The remaining 50% correspond to words which do not occur in the VM, and these may be words like nuserosis which are not valid Voynichese, or words that are valid Voynichese and are simply unused in the VM.

(24-02-2016, 10:54 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(24-02-2016, 07:35 AM)-Job- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The portion you quoted indicates that, among the set of words used in the Latin Bible sample text that contain an 'm', replacing the 'm' with an 's' results in another word used in the same sample text about 7% of the time.

Hello Job, I expect that almost all of the Latin substitutions depend on the last letter: 
e.g. 
factum (Accusative / Neutral) factus (Nominative / Masculine)
essem (First person) esses (Second person)

While in Voynichese, substitutions are not clearly related to the position of the character in the word. Is it so?

That's exactly right, most of the valid m/s replacements occur at the end of the words.

For Voynichese it's unlikely that there is a clear a pattern.


RE: The "gallows" characters - Davidsch - 28-02-2016

Thank You to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for this post

Then this is what i expected you meant. And my first reply stands: it does not tell us much on the text as a whole.
For one, the language is unknown.

But we can look inside the Voynese.
We can replace the gallow characters that resemble:   t=k and p=f

You can see that the last replacement is possible: they can be interchanged like f=p and p=f or p=f=z
the low frequency of f and p perhaps  has something to do what that.

However,  t and k are not related that way.


RE: The "gallows" characters - -JKP- - 28-02-2016

Finding which characters can be replaced and which can't is a very useful tool.

It can potentially help distinguish which letter variations are simply embellishments or variations of the pen and which ones might be glyphs with different significance or different meaning even if they look similar.


RE: The "gallows" characters - Davidsch - 29-02-2016

Yes now i understand that you talk about "potential" letter variations.
Anyway, thanks for explaning.


RE: The "gallows" characters - Anton - 25-03-2016

With regard to the recent discussion of the "tails" of p and f, and also to the above discussion of the gallows coverage, the first vord of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (previously it was f90v2, now it is considered You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for some reason) is extremely interesting.

The "covering" loop of the gallows here begins from the tail of the "p". Another view would be to consider this gallows symbol as a superposition of a p (or a benched cph) and a covering variant of a t.


RE: The "gallows" characters - ReneZ - 26-03-2016

(25-03-2016, 11:56 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....the first vord of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (previously it was f90v2, now it is considered You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for some reason)...

Well spotted!
It's a leftover of the previous incorrect folio labelling at the Beinecke.
It should say You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (part).
This should be clear since You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is already part of the previous image, and the next one is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (part), and it is the only one with this label.
I should be able to get it sorted out, but not sure how quickly :-)


RE: The "gallows" characters - Davidsch - 01-06-2016

Voynichese says that kek exists on 102r2 but i think that's wrong.

Has anyone spotted any word with more than 1 gallow character ?


RE: The "gallows" characters - Anton - 01-06-2016

(01-06-2016, 03:43 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Has anyone spotted any word with more than 1 gallow character ?

I think there are quite many. My records for first vords of botanical folios say:

pchafdan (f36r)
tocphol (f37r)
tshodpy (f44r)
tdokchcfhy (f52r)
kcheat (f56v)
poeeockhey (f57r)
cphdaithy (f90v2)
tolteedycthoepain (f95v1)
tchodypodar (f95v2)


Among Voynich stars there are some: e.g. cphocthy or toeeodcthy.