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+--- Thread: That such apostrophe? (/thread-687.html)
That such apostrophe? - Wladimir D - 19-08-2016
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. program recognizes alike (Sh) all spelling variations "benches" with an apostrophe. (Codes 33, 35, 37, 43, 51, 52, 53 - V101 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ).
I not urge introduce variability, but this reading disappear codes 217 (5, 8), 219 (6), 227 (19), 243 (7), 185, 186.
If enable apostrophe in the base of the glyph bench it is possible to distort the meaning of the apostrophe as the diacritical mark, because the apostrophe is used not only with a bench and a "c" (5, 6, 7, 8, 13, 19), with the "4о" (1, 2 , 3, 4), "Y" (9, 10), "o" (11, 12) and on the callout 20 (my reading) “she + vertical line + apostrophe + y”.
Moreover, some of these characters are encountered with other classic characters diacritical, trait or point.
Trait - "4o"- code 185, "y" - code 187 (27), "o" - code 195.
Point - "ch" code 224 (22), "y" code 190 (26).
Interestingly spelling 14, 15, 16, 17. According to my transcription is a "word" is written as "vertical line + horizontal line + apostrophe + code 94". !!! (horizontal line + apostrophe) = code 164 !!!
According to my translation method - the apostrophe is a symbol of mechanical action (cut, rip up, crumple). Therefore, the word (21) with two apostrophes I translate - finely chopped peduncles, word (24) - cut into (verb!) top leaves.
If be regarded apostrophe as a hieroglyph (full word), it is clear its single application as a label 18.
RE: That such apostrophe? - Anton - 19-08-2016
In my opinion, the "apostrophe" looks like a standalone element which is "imposed" upon "basic" characters to create a superposition of some kind. It is not clear whether the basic shapes (such as i, e, apostrophe etc.) have something more behind their graphic shape (e.g. they may have corresponding numerical values with superposition of basic shapes corresponding to, say, arithmetic addition - like in the monastic cipher described in the D. Kahn's book), or this is nothing more than a way to design additional alphabet characters.
In your figures 11, 14, 15, 21 this is rather an y.
Figures 18, 22, 24 show extended EVA &163; - a very interesting standalone character notable in that it is the only one-letter label in the whole VMS (your fig. 18).
I think that it is the "apostrophe" that is used to make r and n of i.
RE: That such apostrophe? - Wladimir D - 22-08-2016
Anton. I want to explain why I do not exclude that the code 163 (extended EBA) Figure 22, 23, 24 and the code 163 (V101) is an apostrophe.
We all know that the gallows can change the storey. A horizontal line has four positions in the row.
The symbol "c" in conjunction with the gallows can be lowered in the interlinear. The average "e" in a long bench also goes down into the interlinear and being written with a vertical gap.
Bracket code 168 (V101) has three positions in the row.
In Figure 31, the symbol "S" is written on the second floor. And it does not seem to the insert the missing letters, because "S" written directly over the "a".
In Figure 28, the symbol "r" is also written on the second floor above the code 156 (v101).
Why the apostrophe can not jump?
Is configuration difference can be explained by the rapid spelling in conjunction with a bench. Apostrophes with bench and apostrophes with the symbols "o" and "y" is also different. Perhaps with "o" and "y" they written for the second pass.
RE: That such apostrophe? - Anton - 22-08-2016
I agree that EVA &163; might be the same as the standalone "apostrophe".
RE: That such apostrophe? - Wladimir D - 25-08-2016
1. This post is can be partially related to the apostrophe.
Code 88 (v101) (34) consists of a code 153 (extended EVA) (32, 33) and the apostrophe. Moreover, for black details it seems that the apostrophe is added during the second pass.
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2. I had previously thought that the code 142 (extended EVA) on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (35) is a single an instance on f19v, which is probably why developers v101 have considered the symbol - slip of the pen, and did not include in its list. However, look at the 36. Despite the fact that the program reads
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. here for at the end of the word is clearly visible to code 168 bracket + slash, that at sum is a code 142!
RE: That such apostrophe? - Wladimir D - 17-09-2016
Consider the character column on f49v. All are used in the text. That is both character code 192 (extended EVA) (1, 2) can be considered as a separate glyph.
This brings me back to the previously been suggested about the existence of "horizontal line" character. Code 192 consists of "horizontal line" and the apostrophe. A possible example of (3)?
If we consider the examples 10 and 14, it is clearly seen that the left leg, "the bench" is symbol of the "i", that is the apostrophe belongs symbol "h" (or "horizontal line" with an apostrophe + e). This contradicts You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , where this combination is read "sh".
Similarly, it is necessary to lay out 7, 8 and the all "bench" with an apostrophe.
Symbols "code 192", "r" and "s" are written in two steps. For me, writing is unnatural S - mirror in two steps. Thus (If to distract from my method of deciphering) I have suggestion that in this case the apostrophe is a modifier denoting a following vowel (for accurate reading of the word), just like such a method is applied in the syllabic script (Abugida) when the number of vowels omitted.
RE: That such apostrophe? - Anton - 17-09-2016
Thanks Wladimir!
You have been presenting very useful examples of "unusual" Voynichese characters throughout your participation in the forum. It would be very helpful if you could systematize all those images into a single thread (or perhaps in a single document), so that they could be easily found. Speaking for myself, quite often I have need to refer to one or another example of yours, but then I cannot remember where the particular one is located
RE: That such apostrophe? - -JKP- - 17-09-2016
(17-09-2016, 04:33 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thanks Wladimir!
You have been presenting very useful examples of "unusual" Voynichese characters throughout your participation in the forum. It would be very helpful if you could systematize all those images into a single thread (or perhaps in a single document), so that they could be easily found. Speaking for myself, quite often I have need to refer to one or another example of yours, but then I cannot remember where the particular one is located
Wladimir is very observant and a wealth of information about patterns and anomalies in the manuscript.
One of the things I have noticed about the main text is that Hand 1 does not treat the superscripted shapes (I'm reluctant to call them apostrophes since that has specific linguistic connotations) associated with the "n" shape (EVA-ch) in the same way as Hand 2. In Hand 2, there is greater specificity and consistency of the "cap".
RE: That such apostrophe? - Wladimir D - 21-09-2016
Anton
Unfortunately, I can not the full sense blog in English. So I has placed my artifacts on his page in https You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . There is short explanation on English. Some examples augmented.
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I too collided with a similar problem when trying to find the attached drawing, but I forget a theme and author. I had to consistently raise the user profiles and open all posts.
Is it possible in profile from posting the label, along with all messages and attachments separately to all the pictures that they could be flipping, because keeps records and the volume attached drawings.
Можно ли в профиле пользователя разместить метку, наряду со всеми сообщениями, и отдельно на все прикрепленные картинки, что бы их можно было листать, ведь ведется учет прикрепленного объема рисунков.
RE: That such apostrophe? - ThomasCoon - 21-09-2016
Wladimir, maybe you could make a thread here? It could simply be a "container" for all your (very helpful) images.
And maybe we can add "textual anomalies" that we find - I have found a few odd things also.