Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all

Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Printable Version

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+--- Thread: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all (/thread-653.html)

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RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - juergenw - 29-07-2016

(29-07-2016, 03:08 PM)Marco Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Another possibility is that the T-O map does not represent "planet Earth" but Earth as one of the four elements. This hypothesis is maybe slightly less weak if one considers the circle at the bottom left of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and the possible "water" You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. at the bottom left of the Rosettes page.

Possible. I mentioned earlier in this thread that I thought the TO map in question to indicate 'the oecumene' as the part of the world with inhabitants (Asia, Aftica and Europe) basically a tag indicating planet Earth in the current form

However, I like to throw in another possibility: What if the current state we see is not the original one? Just imagine, for a moment, the T in the O (drawing the lines between the continent in the small appendix) was added at a LATER stage. Just imagine the O as 'empty circle' and see the link as the pulling/pushing force (tides) to the Earth circle - then I could imagine the empty O being the moon. Looking at the diameter and checking against the diameter of the Earth, that would fit in a decent manner of a bit more than a 1 in 4 ratio (Earth 11 Moon 3) what was well known back then since classical times. Would explain then the water and tides ?

RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - EllieV - 29-07-2016

(29-07-2016, 05:39 PM)juergenw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(29-07-2016, 03:08 PM)Marco Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Another possibility is that the T-O map does not represent "planet Earth" but Earth as one of the four elements. This hypothesis is maybe slightly less weak if one considers the circle at the bottom left of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and the possible "water" You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. at the bottom left of the Rosettes page.

Possible. I mentioned earlier in this thread that I thought the TO map in question to indicate 'the oecumene' as the part of the world with inhabitants (Asia, Aftica and Europe) basically a tag indicating planet Earth in the current form

Thanks, I really like this idea - the TO map (inhabited part of the world) is next to the rosette representing North and the "water" glyph is next to the one representing South (Marco, I probably missed where you explain this - why do you believe this glyph represents water?). There is possibility that the author viewed the model of the Earth as the one presented by Nicola Oresme (who believed the bottom half of the Earth sphere is covered with water). You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - MarcoP - 29-07-2016

(29-07-2016, 06:21 PM)EllieV Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Marco, I probably missed where you explain this - why do you believe this glyph represents water?

Hi Ellie,
I think I first read this in a comment by Orun Rubaci on the blog of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., but I believe others observed the similarity of the symbol with that of Aqua Vitae (literally "the water of life").
It could be interesting that the T-O symbol was also a symbol of "vitriol". The glyphs in the corners of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are all particularly alchemy-like.

Image of Aqua Vitae from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 1671, of Vitriol and Mercury from this 1557 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (Yale. Mellon MS 38. Caspar Harttung vom Hoff. Das Vade mecum).

I am far for sure that these symbols were in use in the XV century.
Aqua Vitae is more likely related with alcohol, but the name (and the kind of analogical reasoning frequent in alchemical works) suggests that this substance was also seen as some kind of water.

[Image: attachment.php?aid=448]

RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Linda - 29-07-2016

(29-07-2016, 11:23 AM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Quote:
Quote:
(28-07-2016, 09:36 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This neglects the T-O map. The fact that the T-O map is connected with the "Rosette w/castle" suggests that this Rosette represents either Europe (the part of the T-O it is connected with) or Earth on the whole.

Good observation! Recently i thought that the top right "Rosette with the castle" represent Italy / Mediterranean area / or a city in Italy. So the word that connects to that area= poey poey.

You can look at it very big, like the earth of the universe.
But also very small, like it represents a city or perhaps more general: the sea, or: lake

What could it be ? And are there also other words on the other area's ?

I agree with your multilevel description.

Re the castle, the one at Sirmione strikes me as similar. The reason I find it significant is that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in quire 13 shows a body of water that resembles Lake Garda, a large lake in Northern Italy at the base of the Alps, on which this castle is found, including reference to what I take to mean a sulphur spring (the yellow barrel-like item through which water flows into the waterbody, i.e. the water travels underground and comes back up, which describes a spring, and the colour yellow ascribed to sulphur) which is also a major connection to the castle and area in which it is found. There are also other castles on the lake as well, the castle portrayed could be a conglomerate thereof. The lake seems a likely place for high profile travellers of the area to have stayed along the way. It has also seen many battles between various different combatants over time, a place where many people have met under various circumstances.

It seems to me You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. describes travels which could include visiting Lake Constance, where the Council of 1414-1418 was held, which included representatives from all over. I think I recall seeing a heraldry manuscript which described those who would be attending a vote on the new pope, this could be related as well, various other councils were held also within the same general area of Italy and the Alps in that general time period. Could this rosette (and/or f80r&v) be describing those journeys through various lakes and mountains, and/or the general perception of the area? Maybe some of the rivers outside the rosette show how some of them arrived to the area. Could the other rosettes be various places along the way from whence they came, or descriptions of places from which the people they met there originated or passed through, and/or outlining other concepts or perceptions gained from these meetings or discussions thereof afterwards? Are the winds involved the winds of change?

Many maps and geographical treatises contain a similar theme, that of truth about the world and its history, both regarding what is to be left in and what is left out. Could these drawings be an attempt at updating truths not commonly portrayed? Could the parts that do not seem to be portrayed be purposefully missing, as facts remaining unknown to their satisfaction, and/or truths already sufficiently covered in terms of general human knowledge?

Re the vords in the T-O map, they don't quite match those of the T-O map with the nebuly line around it, but I noticed something, on the rosette version there seems to have been moisture deterioration and there may be a letter missing from the vord in what would generally be Asia on a typical T-O map. Looks like a faded "8" glyph before the visible vord, and possibly a faded "8am" vord above it. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. If so then it seems to match the third word in the matching section on the nebuly version. Likewise there are major similarities with the Europe and Africa vords. Could it be differences like the various spellings thereof found on different maps over time? Or the different identifications made by peoples of different backgrounds or languages? Aphrique vs Africa perhaps? If no "8" exists, that vord is still found in the circle around the nebuly T-O map (approx 4 o'clock) as well as being part of that third vord. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Perhaps it's possible to glean some insight from the comparisons thereof. Likewise with the spring summer fall related vords that appear similar but different, elsewhere in the manuscript.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
[url=https://www.jasondavies.com/voynich/#f68v3_f68v2_f68v1/0.269/0.485/5.00][/url]
[Image: Sirmione.jpg]

RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Davidsch - 30-07-2016

(29-07-2016, 11:47 AM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@ Davidsch:

I think it's rather cpoey. But the problem that I feel is there is that many labels may be not direct "names". Suppose this area represents Europe, but that does not mean that cpoey means "Europe". The VMS author may have reasonably considered that the fact that this area represents Europe is just obvious so it did not deserve a special note. And cpoey may refer to some important (in the context of the diagram) association with Europe - such as "good" or "moist" or a name of an angel, etc.

I see that the loop below is not an extra e but just an bottom curl attached at the downwards stroke.

[Image: alphabet-stencils-curly-l.jpg]

Or do you think it says: cPhey

I can not see on this resolution.

The other text in the TO-map:

osal / asal and okar ?

(29-07-2016, 03:08 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

transcription of the text in that TO map:

It's Medieval Latin. Oriens is East, Occidens is West, Septentris is North, Meridies is South. Mare Oceanun is literally the "Sea of Ocean", the sea that surrounds the world. See Oceanus. We have the then known three land masses: Asia, Europa, and Africa. Europe and Africa are separated by the Mediterraneum, and Africa is south and Europe is north. What separates Africa and Europe from Asia to the East?

Today one would say the Indian Ocean, Red Sea, Suez Canal, Aegean Sea, Turkish Straits, Black Sea, Kuma–Manych Depression, Caspian Sea, Emba River, and the Ural Mountains. The T&O map says "Mare magnum fiue"? Maremagnum is the Great Sea. Normally that would be the Atlantic, except the Atlantic is west of Europe and Africa. The map also has descriptors for the continents, looks like Sem, Cham, and Iafeth. Cham is Ham the son of Noah, see Hamitic. Iafeth is Japheth, see Japhetic. Sem is Shem, see Semitic. 75.15.198.35 (talk) 19:59, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

The text in the middle is "Mare magnum sive mediterraneum," meaning "great or inland sea." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.188.90 (talk) 14:31, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

-source: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.-

Asia - Sem
Mare magnum sive- Mediterraneum
Europa - Iafeth
Africa - Cham

RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Davidsch - 09-08-2016

addition 10-8-2016

I did more research and references to the numbers 72 and 9 on the rosette page.

See my blog: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

with

Nimrod's tower -> Materials -> 72 poets
9 Elixirs -> Book of the Nine Elixirs
Ge Hong’s Traditions of Divine Transcendents
Daoists -> Nine Worms

RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - davidjackson - 10-08-2016

Quote:Today one would say the Indian Ocean, Red Sea, Suez Canal, Aegean Sea, Turkish Straits, Black Sea, Kuma–Manych Depression, Caspian Sea, Emba River, and the Ural Mountains. The T&O map says "Mare magnum fiue"? Maremagnum is the Great Sea. Normally that would be the Atlantic, except the Atlantic is west of Europe and Africa. The map also has descriptors for the continents, looks like Sem, Cham, and Iafeth. Cham is Ham the son of Noah, see Hamitic. Iafeth is Japheth, see Japhetic. Sem is Shem, see Semitic. 75.15.198.35 (talk) 19:59, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

The text in the middle is "Mare magnum sive mediterraneum," meaning "great or inland sea." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.188.90 (talk) 14:31, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Mare magnum sive Mediterraneum meaning "the great sea or Mediterranean". The Mare Magnum was the ancient name of the Med.

Cham, Shem and Japheth are the sons of Noah who colonised the different continents: Africa, Europe, Asia.
Pretty common TO nomenclature. In other maps the divisions between Europe / Asia are marked by the Black sea, and the division between Asia / Africa by the Nile.

RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Linda - 10-08-2016

(10-08-2016, 12:26 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Quote:Today one would say the Indian Ocean, Red Sea, Suez Canal, Aegean Sea, Turkish Straits, Black Sea, Kuma–Manych Depression, Caspian Sea, Emba River, and the Ural Mountains. The T&O map says "Mare magnum fiue"? Maremagnum is the Great Sea. Normally that would be the Atlantic, except the Atlantic is west of Europe and Africa. The map also has descriptors for the continents, looks like Sem, Cham, and Iafeth. Cham is Ham the son of Noah, see Hamitic. Iafeth is Japheth, see Japhetic. Sem is Shem, see Semitic. 75.15.198.35 (talk) 19:59, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

The text in the middle is "Mare magnum sive mediterraneum," meaning "great or inland sea." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.188.90 (talk) 14:31, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Mare magnum sive Mediterraneum meaning "the great sea or Mediterranean". The Mare Magnum was the ancient name of the Med.

Cham, Shem and Japheth are the sons of Noah who colonised the different continents: Africa, Europe, Asia.
Pretty common TO nomenclature. In other maps the divisions between Europe / Asia are marked by the Black sea, and the division between Asia / Africa by the Nile.

Some geographers considered the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as the division between Europe and Asia

RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Searcher - 10-08-2016

Mare Magnum est quod ab occasu ex Oceano fluit et in meridiem vergit, deinde ad septentrionem tendit; quod inde magnum appellatur quia cetera maria in conparatione eius minora sunt. Iste est et Mediterraneus, quia per mediam terram usque ad orientem perfunditur, Europam et Africam Asiamque disterminans.
As well, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

[Image: attachment.php?aid=461]

RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Davidsch - 17-08-2016

I was thinking today, if the rosette page is a summary of the entire codex, or parts of it, then

1 which pages could be "mapped" onto the rosette page
2 and can we find those words from the rosette page on those pages as well ?

Surely, this has been investigated before ?