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Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Printable Version

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+--- Thread: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all (/thread-653.html)

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RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Davidsch - 28-07-2016

Especially for the VMS, i studied Hebrew, Yiddisch and the Kabbalah and influences in history, intensively during circa 10 months. Finally i concluded the VMS has 0% hebrew/jewish/kabbalistic influences.

RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - MarcoP - 28-07-2016

(28-07-2016, 02:45 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.ok, very nice, but let me ask you: if you can draw naked ladies, why should one draw 72 pipes when you want to display angles ?

The artist shows he is able to draw waves in 3D on the Rosette page and he can draw depth (see the sunken tower).

I think Searcher's "3D rendering" does an excellent job at presenting a possible interpretation for the central rosette.
The six pillars seem to me strongly suggestive of the "pillars of heaven" (a concept that, as Searcher suggests, has been widespread in many cultures).

In my opinion, the pipes possibly represent the winds. In this case, I see no particular reason to think the winds were meant to be personified as angels as in the Bellifortis illustration linked You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. The 12 groups of pipes around the diagram could simply correspond to the 12 winds (as in numberless Western diagrams). What would be much less common in this interpretation is that the winds apparently blow from the center, while they typically blow from the "outside space" towards the Earth which is at the center of the diagram.

[Image: bede.jpg]

RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Searcher - 28-07-2016

(28-07-2016, 03:19 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Especially for the VMS, i studied Hebrew, Yiddisch and the Kabbalah and influences in history, intensively during circa 10 months. Finally i concluded the VMS has 0% hebrew/jewish/kabbalistic influences.

Really, I couldn't see any obvious sign of hebrew/jewish/kabbalistic influences visually, at least, at first sight. By the way, anyone may consider those 72 pipes just as the number "72" or "12*6", whether it be names of God or angels, either the minimal period of precession, or any of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Personally I have a couple of reasons to suspect Hebrew influence, but they doesn't relate to the number 72 directly.
From the other side, the number "12" is not less meaningful. 
This chart must be interpreted in the aggregate, maybe, then its whole sense will be more intelligible.
My next supposition is that the "Rosette with the castle" doesn't represent the Earth or another planet, I think, it shows the process of division of the Cosmic waters, so, one part (to the left) appears on the Earth (with a castle) and the second - above the firmament (to the right), the "midst" (sky with stars, sun and moon) is between them (center).

[Image: attachment.php?aid=446]

RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Anton - 28-07-2016

Quote:My next supposition is that the "Rosette with the castle" doesn't represent the Earth or another planet, I think, it shows the process of division of the Cosmic waters, so, one part (to the left) appears on the Earth (with a castle) and the second - above the firmament (to the right), the "midst" (sky with stars, sun and moon) is between them (center).

This neglects the T-O map. The fact that the T-O map is connected with the "Rosette w/castle" suggests that this Rosette represents either Europe (the part of the T-O it is connected with) or Earth on the whole.

RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Linda - 28-07-2016

(28-07-2016, 11:50 AM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Linda...that is exactly what i wrote in the posting before you..24 hours earlier.... Tongue

sorry about that, sometimes i leave tabs open for way too long and forget to check for updates before posting. i'd say great minds, but mine needs to go download some updates i think.

There is another similar nine circle diagram, top right in this collectionYou are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., it is in one of Juergen Wastl's papers about the Rosettes too.

RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - -Job- - 29-07-2016

(26-07-2016, 06:07 PM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.One of the reasons that Voynich studies goes no-where, and with leaden feet is this curious phenomenon where people think you can explain a six-hundred year old artefact when its imagery is so opaque to modern European eyes, when its text is unknown and unread,  and do so without any particular study but just pulling out whatever happens to be in your head already or whatever happens to grab your fancy elsewhere - Pinterest is a particular irritant.

There is a distinction between formal research and informal discussion that i don't think you've grasped.

Yes, blog comments and forum posting are not up to the standards of research publications. No, random webpage visitors are not necessarily qualified to conduct proper peer review.

Do you also interrupt strangers at the local coffee shop that happen to be discussing the Voynich to point out how they are not advancing the field, how you posted similar ideas in some corner of the internet, how their anonymous professional backgrounds are probably lacking in any type of expertise?

It's absurd. How do you not understand that?

RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Davidsch - 29-07-2016

Quote:
Quote:
(28-07-2016, 09:36 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This neglects the T-O map. The fact that the T-O map is connected with the "Rosette w/castle" suggests that this Rosette represents either  Europe (the part of the T-O it is connected with) or Earth on the whole.

Good observation! Recently i thought that the top right "Rosette with the castle" represent Italy / Mediterranean area / or a city in Italy.  So the word that connects to that area= poey poey.  

You can look at it very big, like the earth of the universe.
But also very small, like it represents a city or perhaps more general: the sea, or: lake 

What could it be ? And are there also other words on the other area's ?


RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Anton - 29-07-2016

@ -Job-:

Let's not develop offtopic, please.

@ Davidsch:

I think it's rather cpoey. But the problem that I feel is there is that many labels may be not direct "names". Suppose this area represents Europe, but that does not mean that cpoey means "Europe". The VMS author may have reasonably considered that the fact that this area represents Europe is just obvious so it did not deserve a special note. And cpoey may refer to some important (in the context of the diagram) association with Europe - such as "good" or "moist" or a name of an angel, etc.

RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Searcher - 29-07-2016

(29-07-2016, 11:47 AM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@ -Job-:

Let's not develop offtopic, please.

@ Davidsch:

I think it's rather cpoey. But the problem that I feel is there is that many labels may be not direct "names". Suppose this area represents Europe, but that does not mean that cpoey means "Europe". The VMS author may have reasonably considered that the fact that this area represents Europe is just obvious so it did not deserve a special note. And cpoey may refer to some important (in the context of the diagram) association with Europe - such as "good" or "moist" or a name of an angel, etc.

Well... this "T-O map" confuses everybody. My speculative idea is that this not a map, not Europe or Asia. I consider it a place, where cosmic waters flow from. I interpret the word cpeey as "Alveum" and believe, the connection to the "Rosette of a castle" is really a channel.
A little about a source of the cosmic waters:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
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The drawing of the stream directions.

[Image: attachment.php?aid=447]

RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - MarcoP - 29-07-2016

(28-07-2016, 09:36 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Quote:My next supposition is that the "Rosette with the castle" doesn't represent the Earth or another planet, I think, it shows the process of division of the Cosmic waters, so, one part (to the left) appears on the Earth (with a castle) and the second - above the firmament (to the right), the "midst" (sky with stars, sun and moon) is between them (center).

This neglects the T-O map. The fact that the T-O map is connected with the "Rosette w/castle" suggests that this Rosette represents either  Europe (the part of the T-O it is connected with) or Earth on the whole.

T-O maps are tantalizing (I include the one at the center of f68v3). As far as I know, the documented candidates for the labels are not many, but I have seen no reasonable set of matches yet. One possibly relevant thing for the Rosettes globe, is that in T-O maps both the T and the O represent water: the Earth is surrounded by a circular Ocean. So the link could also be related to something "watery" like tides, for instance.... I know this is far fetched.

[Image: 240px-T_and_O_map_Guntherus_Ziner_1472.jpg]


Another possibility is that the T-O map does not represent "planet Earth" but Earth as one of the four elements. This hypothesis is maybe slightly less weak if one considers the circle at the bottom left of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and the possible "water" You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. at the bottom left of the Rosettes page.