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+--- Thread: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all (/thread-653.html)
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Linda - 25-07-2016
(24-07-2016, 09:16 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Interpretation of those tusks as crescents leads to stunning results.
You know, when you see moons, you count them, to begin with. I counted them, and the number of these crescents is thirty seven.
Von Humboldt You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (p. 127) that the ecclesiastical (if the term may be used) year of Muysca indians contained 37 moons. He further suggests (p. 235) that the cycle of twenty times thirty seven sunas is an Asiatic one, not specifying which Asicatic calendar this is exactly.
Assuming the VMS is pre-Columbian, what calendars have been there with 37 moons?
Thanks for counting them!
37 moons is the simplest way to fit the lunar year to the solar year by adding one moon every 3 years (and again every 30 years to take care of the remainder).
Evidently the Muslim calendar is based on this observation, but it is also posited for neolithic and Bronze Age use. This very interesting article You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - MarcoP - 25-07-2016
(25-07-2016, 05:56 PM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(25-07-2016, 11:18 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Manuscript You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (England, 2nd half of the 15th century) and its later copy You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. contain diagrams that seem to me to somehow resemble Rene's analysis of the Rosettes diagram. The center of this diagrams is a synthetic scheme of the sky (I cannot identify one of the three components, but the other two clearly are the Sun and the Moon). The seven planets and the four elements are represented around the central circle.
There are the signs of the Zodiac as well and the third component looks like one of the Zodiac symbols to me, is it Capricorn?
Thank you Helmut. In Harley 2407 it could look like the glyph of Virgo or Scorpio. But from Egerton 845 I think it could read [s]atur[nus]. If so, Harley 2407 could be a very abbreviated s[atur]n9. I am not familiar with the superscript "S" that appears in both manuscripts, so I am not sure if "Saturnus" could make sense. I have also thought of ar[c]tur[us], but this does not include the superscript "S".
In my opinion, the relevance of these diagrams for Rene's argument is only the presence of the seven planets arranged around something that could represent the sky. I know it is not a strong parallel and the presence of the zodiac signs makes it even weaker.
PS: maybe m[er]cur[ius] is a better option and Harely 2407 has just the initial "m" with an abbreviation sign.
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Anton - 25-07-2016
Quote:It is interesting, if mentioned rosette is the object, relating to the f40v, why the last one contains only 35 moons.
Yes, you are right. There is that f40v. Note the pattern of the petals - it is not dissimilar from what we see in the Rosettes. And the count is 35 indeed. Hence:
- the count is accidental and no special meaning should be attached to it;
OR
- the count of 35 also has some specific meaning.
There were (as the google search suggests) calendars with some months amounting to 35 days, but not moons.
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Oocephalus - 25-07-2016
Anton:
Quote:I wander what's the origin of number 37 in the indians' calendar, to begin with. Why 37, but not 35 or 43?I guess it just originated as a cycle of three solar years. A suna (30 days) appears to be an approximation to the lunar cycle, just as our months. Note that according to Humboldt the Muisca also had a "week" of three days, so the idea of cycles of threes may have been there.
Also good observation on the similarities to other folios. It seems indeed that the upper left rosette has to do with the moon. Which would mean that my own idea is probably wrong, as I thought the upper right one was connected to the moon.
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Linda - 25-07-2016
(25-07-2016, 07:45 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote:It is interesting, if mentioned rosette is the object, relating to the f40v, why the last one contains only 35 moons.
Yes, you are right. There is that f40v. Note the pattern of the petals - it is not dissimilar from what we see in the Rosettes. And the count is 35 indeed. Hence:
- the count is accidental and no special meaning should be attached to it;
OR
- the count of 35 also has some specific meaning.
There were (as the google search suggests) calendars with some months amounting to 35 days, but not moons.
crescent
First use: 14th century
Origin: from Latin crescēns increasing, from crescere to grow
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
perhaps it has a different meaning here than moon, and indicates the growth habits of the plant.
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Helmut Winkler - 26-07-2016
[quote pid='4680' dateline='1469469022']
PS: maybe m[er]cur[ius] is a better option and Harely 2407 has just the initial "m" with an abbreviation sign.
[/quote]
I think the mercurius reading is correct - and it makes sense, of course
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - MarcoP - 26-07-2016
f48v of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., Gossouin of Metz, Image du Monde (1489) has illustrations of the world with a pattern similar to some details of the Rosettes page. The pattern in also similar to a common way to illustrate mountains that can also be seen in the Beatus map Linda linked You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. But in the Walters ms each element of the texture has a central dot, as in some of the occurrences in the Voynich ms.
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Anton - 26-07-2016
And what this pattern designates in Walters?
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - MarcoP - 26-07-2016
(26-07-2016, 02:44 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.And what this pattern designates in Walters?
It represents Earth: the pattern is in most cases filled with green and occurs in a number of diagrams representing "Earth" as "the World" (we would now say "planet Earth").
In You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. it represents Earth ("Terre") as one of the Four Elements. I think the title in red above the illustration could translate "The Earth keeps itself at the exact center of the Universe".
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Davidsch - 26-07-2016
la terre le tient droit au fut milieu (where milieu=environment/surroundings cause univers=universe)
feu = fire
air
yaiir ???
terre = earth/ground