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+--- Thread: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all (/thread-653.html)
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - ReneZ - 24-07-2016
Dear Juergen,
in the sense that you quoted:
Quote:‘Maps are graphic representations that facilitate a spatial understanding of things, concepts, conditions, processes, or events in the human world.’
I agree that the rosettes illustration looks like a map. A map of processes or a map of the cosmos.
What I am not convinced of is that it is a map in the geographical sense.
I note a kind of parallel with the so-called 'spiral nebula' illustration on f68v3. The latter has the Earth in the centre, and eight 'connections' going out, whereas the rosettes page has (seems to have) the sky in the centre and eight connections that may be going out or coming in.
In both cases, four touch and four don't touch.
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Wladimir D - 24-07-2016
Marco and ...
On the left middle rosette, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and f78r displayed one and the same tip design tent.
The average top rosette has another tip design.
On the lower middle rosette the tip do not need a since tent stretched at an angle and forms a a ramp (plums).
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Davidsch - 24-07-2016
Thank you Rene for sharing these ideas, i like it.
I am beyond the approach "searching-images-that-resemble". If you go to Pinterest and search a circle image, you will find thousands of images that resemble one way or another. Although enjoyable, with respect to the VMS, it seems a bit of a haystack. Just google on "hermetic circles". I found circle pages in libraries where the librarians didn't even know they had them. But you will never find a page with 9 circles like the Rosette page.
The Rosette page is, together with f57v, one of the most complex pages in the entire manuscript. Not only because of the many details, but also because of the many different symbols. History proved that the best chance of solving a problem, lies always in the littlest detail.
I think the Rosette page is NOT a map as we now use in our TomTom.
However i think it depicts places in a fantasy configuration. Something like Disneyland with all the different sections which represent the fairy tales. In the VMS the Rosette page has something to do with gardening; it is very logical compared with the other drawings in the ms.
Another very likely candidate is alembecking and distilling. In the time of the manuscript this was a woman's job. If you look at the Rosette page you see the pipes of the apparatus, but also the six "towers". The Rosette page looks like a giant factory for distillation of the sun beams and the moon moisture. To me this is the best explanation and i am working on that.
I investigated if the six towers in the middle could be probably the most important potions/elixirs that are described in the ms. In the VMS there are a total of 14 cans with labels. Could we find the names of those cans on the rosette page? No, the labels on containers could not be found on the Rosette page, exactly or significantly.
However, a long time ago i found that aspects on the Rosette page resemble: spiritus anima (abbrev.: Spi Aia) = the soul. Only made small progress there with the help of one of the Ripley Scrolls. But that is a direction i do not like to take.
Added:
If interested you can read more: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
If these on the Rosette represent the 7 planets, 7 days, 7 humours, 7 metals or alike, together with the earth and the sky, it would be very probable that this was discussed in the manuscript on other pages. Then we should be able to find references of the text on the Rosette-page with the other pages in the VMS.
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - MarcoP - 24-07-2016
(24-07-2016, 02:02 PM)Wladimir D Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Marco and ...
On the left middle rosette, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and f78r displayed one and the same tip design tent.
The average top rosette has another tip design.
On the lower middle rosette the tip do not need a since tent stretched at an angle and forms a a ramp (plums).
Thank you Wladimir. This is something definitely worth considering when discussing the diagram as a whole: there appear to be a number of tents, canopies, baldaquins:
- the starred polygonal canopy supported by the six pillars in the central rosette
- the rectangular baldaquins in the lower-right rosette
- as you and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (same post I linked above) pointed out, there are elements that suggest that also other rosettes represent conical tents with ropes on the borders and a pole at the center.
Here is another image from Ellie's post:
![[Image: voynich+tents.png]](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-yv7SAx2EcFs/UTtvi2RI3TI/AAAAAAAAAzE/s2ngiWGgWT4/s1600/voynich+tents.png)
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - MarcoP - 24-07-2016
(23-07-2016, 05:05 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote:The upper right circle I believe represents the Earth. Most of the buildings are in or near this circle, and just outside it is a T-O map.
That's an interesting perspective, it did not occur to me that this T-O map may indeed be looked at from this angle.
I think one of the main problems with your suggestion is that some circles are connected with walls. Why would extra-terrestrial objects be interconnected with such terrestrial structures as walls?
Just to point out that merlons and pillars were sometimes used metaphorically in ancient diagrams. Yet I agree that the buildings we see in the rosettes page are extremely detailed and suggestive of actual buildings.
Image below from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (Fig.12).
![[Image: Evans12(350x461).jpg]](https://www.she-philosopher.com/images/gallery/exhibits/Evans12(350x461).jpg)
And also think of the seven Castles of the Planets in ms You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (1475):
![[Image: cb3d34c6b216eefbc5d3be2fb929b10e.jpg]](https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/cb/3d/34/cb3d34c6b216eefbc5d3be2fb929b10e.jpg)
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Anton - 24-07-2016
Regarding those tents.
Were there, in the medieval tradition, any concepts of "roofs" or "domes" covering or uniting certain entities? If yes, then that would give us a hint about the essence of these tents in the Rosettes. As an example, the firmament is one such "dome" that I can think of. Underneath it the Earth is located.
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - EllieV - 24-07-2016
(23-07-2016, 08:59 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[url=https://www.google.ca/maps/@35.8821545,-5.463966,90660a,20y,270h/data=!3m1!1e3][/url]Hi Linda,
The crescents in the Rosette and the "guns" coming off the rosette further down in the view could be political/religious icons. in 1415 Ceuta was conquered by the Portuguese.
Coat of Arms of Ceuta is that of Portugal: note the 5 dots/5 shields configuration especially in comparison with the "guns". These dots have Christian meaning.
![[Image: escudo+de+ceuta.png]](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NFLdwOfvd0g/TjLt36RuN0I/AAAAAAAADY4/h_xu5Gbq1-U/s1600/escudo+de+ceuta.png)
The five dot shields are the symbols of Burgundy. The religious meaning is the five holy wounds of Christ. In this context - the "guns" could represent the nails on the cross (although one of the wounds was made by spear).
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - -JKP- - 24-07-2016
(24-07-2016, 09:40 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
That the upper-left circle could represent the moon is also suggested by the many crescents on the inside.
...
Yes, I agree and think that idea should be kept on the table.
My initial impression, years ago, was of symbolic heat or water, but since that time, moon references also came to mind and since the moon has long been associated with water (and so many VMS illustrations hint at double meanings), it would strengthen the possibility of a moon relation as a possible interpretation.
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - EllieV - 24-07-2016
(24-07-2016, 02:48 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Whatever the meaning of the diagram, the presence of all these tents seems to be a meaningful tract of it.
Hi Marco,
I actually talked to expert about the tent possibility. His opinion was that it is unlikely - he had never seen 15th century tents being drawn from this perspective - from above. He also noted that the ropes with knots are tied backwards :
Personally, I keep in mind the tents as possibility, but it could be related also to rosette windows as architectural element (I've seen the windows being discussed. I apologize, I don't remember where and by whom)(24-07-2016, 11:10 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I agree that the rosettes illustration looks like a map. A map of processes or a map of the cosmos.Hi Rene,
What I am not convinced of is that it is a map in the geographical sense.
Charts with philosophical representation of the world often include the cardinal directions and other geographical map elements(winds etc). I agree that the 9-rosette maybe more that just a geographical map.
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Anton - 24-07-2016
Quote:That the upper-left circle could represent the moon is also suggested by the many crescents on the inside.
Hmm... I interpret those as teeth or tusks.