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+--- Thread: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all (/thread-653.html)
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Sam G - 23-07-2016
(23-07-2016, 03:53 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I initially could not understand what Searcher's post had to do with the subject of the thread, but now I can see some connections (even if I don't know if they are the intended ones).
The "Marciana" diagram includes a T-O map at the top right (as well as another on the left).
The lines in the center of the large circle forming a hexagon are also arguably similar to the hexagonal "tent" in the central rosette of the VMS diagram.
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Anton - 23-07-2016
Quote:If the Nine Rosettes is a map of the surface of the earth, what other map of earth's surface displays such a feature? Here are the oceans, here is the land, the mountains, the plains, and here is a cosmic boundary - on the surface of the earth. Really??
This is assumed to be a representation if the idealistic Jerusalem.
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - MarcoP - 23-07-2016
(23-07-2016, 07:48 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote:If the Nine Rosettes is a map of the surface of the earth, what other map of earth's surface displays such a feature? Here are the oceans, here is the land, the mountains, the plains, and here is a cosmic boundary - on the surface of the earth. Really??
This is assumed to be a representation if the idealistic Jerusalem.
Good point. The heavenly Jerusalem was represented like this:
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Yet the heavenly Jerusalem is not the earthly Jerusalem. The city that appears at the center of many medieval European world maps is the earthly one. It would be interesting to see one with the nebuly line in a a world map.
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Linda - 23-07-2016
I'm part of the map crowd I guess, although I'm open to it containing other layers of info and correlations thereof.
Does this
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not resemble this
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to others, but with the actual pillars obscured? (The pillars being the rock of Gibraltar and Ceuta at the very bottom of the satellite view)
[url=https://www.google.ca/maps/@35.8765465,-5.47504,90771a,20y,270h/data=!3m1!1e3][/url]
This would go along with the sun being the west setting sun, to go along with the westernmost point of the Mediterraean Sea.
The outline thereof would have been known for at least 100 years from Portolan Maps such as this 1321 Vesconte version
![[Image: Map-1321-PerrinoVesconte-Atlantic-rotated.jpg]](http://crossingtheoceansea.com/OceanSeaImages/Maps/Map-1321-PerrinoVesconte-Atlantic-rotated.jpg)
Or the 1290 Carta Pisana
![[Image: carta_pisana.jpg]](http://www.sullacrestadellonda.it/cartografia/images/carta_pisana.jpg)
Also, do the decorative elements of the rosette with the layers of rounded mounds and "hairs" coming off them not resemble the mountains in this Beatus Map sketch? and thus could be meant to show mountains in this area, such as the Atlas range, which is what the pillars also are part of? The Beatus map also shows a circle shaped group of mountains in that area with a blank spot between (bottom, east is up).
![[Image: 207B.JPG]](http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/EMimages/207B.JPG)
Coat of Arms of Ceuta is that of Portugal: note the 5 dots/5 shields configuration especially in comparison with the "guns". These dots have Christian meaning. The seven castles represent Moorish fortifications conquered by the Portuguese in the 12th century.
![[Image: escudo+de+ceuta.png]](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NFLdwOfvd0g/TjLt36RuN0I/AAAAAAAADY4/h_xu5Gbq1-U/s1600/escudo+de+ceuta.png)
13th century depiction of a 10th century Moorish battle: note the crescents on the shield
![[Image: Cantigas_battle.jpg]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/Cantigas_battle.jpg)
If not any of these correlations, then what in particular do these things show in terms of the planetary view or in other interpretations? There are buildings there too, to the right of the rosette, so the "Earth" rosette (with T-O map) as mentioned, would not be the only populated area.
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Anton - 23-07-2016
Quote:Good point.
Not mine, I read this interpretation in the paper by Wastl & Feger (don't know if it's original to them). They say:
Quote:Jerusalem as the religious centre of the Christian world often is essential part of a mappa mundiYou are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
and, from late antiquity onwards, frequently occupies the centre of the map (example: Hereford
Mappa mundi or the London Psalter, British Library, Additional Ms 28681, fol.9r, 19). After the
Christians’ final loss of Jerusalem during the Crusades (1244) the spiritual centre of Christendom
increasingly evolved to a state of a New, Heavenly Jerusalem (19, 20). After 1244 Jerusalem was
put less in the centre of maps - only into written accounts (20). Subsequently, Jerusalem was often
exchanged for a new, heavenly and virtual imago of the centre of the Christian theological world.
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Linda - 23-07-2016
(23-07-2016, 08:12 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(23-07-2016, 07:48 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote:If the Nine Rosettes is a map of the surface of the earth, what other map of earth's surface displays such a feature? Here are the oceans, here is the land, the mountains, the plains, and here is a cosmic boundary - on the surface of the earth. Really??
This is assumed to be a representation if the idealistic Jerusalem.
Good point. The heavenly Jerusalem was represented like this:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Yet the heavenly Jerusalem is not the earthly Jerusalem. The city that appears at the center of many medieval European world maps is the earthly one. It would be interesting to see one with the nebuly line in a a world map.
There is more than one nebuly line in the rosettes. I see it as an attempt to combine and/or explain religions/religious history and connections. The heavenly Jerusalem also seems to be a heavenly Cairo from the minarets. There are many Egyptian and Christian religious correlations. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The other place where there is a nebuly line I take to be the Aegean Sea area, or the area of Greece, which brings another set of myths and beliefs to the fore, also adopted by the Romans.
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - R. Sale - 24-07-2016
A bird's eye view of the celestial city, encircled by a cosmic boundary, why not? And the other rosettes are other cities, countries, or planets. It's the sort of situation where one would like to make a decision based of the accumulated weight of evidence. Unfortunately, while there is plenty of data, there's not a lot that can be called unambiguous. That is why the fancy version of the wolkenband in the Central Rosette may be significant. The elaborated pattern on each of the individual bulbs in the nebuly line has very few structural equivalents besides the illustrations of d' Oresme and de Pizan.
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - david - 24-07-2016
Apropos of nothing, I'd like to point out that there is a generic similarity between the nine maps and the nine circles of Hell from Dante.
We start off by looking at the T-O map, which has a road from Europe (Christian) into the plains, whilst the roads from Asia and Africa sweep onto the shores of limbo (behind those walls).
We can then go through the remaining circles, which bear a similarity to the attributes of each circle, until we reach the central circle dominated by the giants, although there isn't an obvious central figure of Satan.
Quite an in-depth paper could be written on this if I had the time.
Mind you, this could just go to show that you can prove anything you want to.
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - ReneZ - 24-07-2016
One thing that struck me in the illustrations of the Augsburg MS is the different shapes of the 'stars' used to represent the planets, also in the weekday diagrams. Some have six points, others eight, and Venus has a flower-like shape in addition.
This, we also see in the individual cosmological diagrams.
Still, I would like to see more examples.
That the upper-left circle could represent the moon is also suggested by the many crescents on the inside.
The 'tent' in the lower-right circle could also represent some object (tabernacle?) made of gold.....
However, this is exactly as far as I got....
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - juergenw - 24-07-2016
(23-07-2016, 10:43 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Many people have considered the rosettes image to represent a map. Some suggest that the entire collection of circles is a map, while others concentrate on one of the circles. Known propositions of this type are from Diane O'Donovan, Nick Pelling, Jürgen Wastl and D. Feger, J.K. Petersen and from Marco Ponzi, but there are many more similar suggestions that predate all of these.
There could be a tendency to believe, by the sheer number of these suggestions, that there is indeed most probably a map here, but I am of a rather different opinion.
...
I do not believe it is a map. For me it is something more abstract.
...
First of all, I believe that the central circle represents the sky. I already mentioned it before. The sky is like a plane or sheet with stars held up by six towers.
The upper right circle I believe represents the Earth. Most of the buildings are in or near this circle, and just outside it is a T-O map. There is more to be said, but let me keep it short.
That leaves 7 circles......
These 7 circles could represent the seven planets.
They could also be associated with the 7 week days and 7 metals.
(Nick Pelling suggests in his book - I believe - that the individual circles in the cosmological section might refer to the planets, so this is a close parallel, if the above-mentioned mapping between individual circles and the rosettes image is real).
Now if this is right, can we decide which circle is which planet / week day / metal? Let me add the mapping first. I also add the association with the humours, but I am not sure if these are uniquely identified.
Moon - Monday - Silver - Cold and moist
Sun - Sunday - Gold - Hot and dry
Mercury - Wednesday - Quicksilver - ?
Venus - Friday - Copper - Cold and moist
Mars - Tuesday - Iron - Hot and dry
Jupiter - Thursday - Tin - Hot and moist
Saturn - Saturday - Lead - Cold and dry
There is another important problem, of course.
In the illustration, all circles on the outside are connected to each other, and connected to the sky in the centre.
This implies that the Earth would have a similar 'role' as the other planets, which is quite an unusual concept for the 15th Century of course....
That raises the question: What is (the definition of) a 'map'? I find the definition of 'map' by Harley & Woodward (in their preface to ‘The history of cartography’ ) to be an excellent and widely acclaimed one:
‘Maps are graphic representations that facilitate a spatial understanding of things, concepts, conditions, processes, or events in the human world.’
This forms part on my latest geometric analysis which fits perfectly into this discussion. Several weeks ago I made my third geometric essay available on figshare raising exactly that question ( You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) .
Via physical ‘triangulation’ (analysing the position of the city landmarks) and philosophical ‘triangulation’ I introduce Brigitte Englisch’s geometric analysis of maps from late antiquity and medieval times and discuss the relationship between geometric projection and geographic representation (and the method's usability with respect to the Rosette folio here) to get closer to the answer : Is the Rosette folio a map?
I sort of agree to your dissent on it being a map. It is not a map in the sense of a geographic travel map. It may have features of it, or at some time during its construction and life it was conceived as one, but I agree it is a more abstract one and, as Marco rightly points out, ours is more an Elements based climate diagram highlighting the climate and its characteristics (hot/cold/dry/moist) per continent.
Centre/sky/six towers:
I agree. We suggested the centre being the quintessential Element Ether AND the abstract & imaginary Heavenly Jerusalem, which others discussed later in this thread already. The one page 'all-in-one' summary view of ours is here (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
upper right circle: representing Earth:
I came to a similar conclusion, if you were to allow ‘Earth’ being substituted by oecumene (living world). The oecumene (see Crates of Mallus) would fit here I believe...
Humours/qualities of the Elements:
Would be interesting to align your qualities with our suggestion of climate qualities per continent/circle. Though the numbers don’t add up (4 vs 7)
I come back to the beginning: Is it a map? It may well be, but was it constructed as a map (and as a map of what?) or did it gain additional features (and in which sequence)? Nick Pelling raised this concern and I agree with him that this is not trivial to solve.
That sort of led me to start from the beginning and try to construct the rosette folio from the beginning - starting with the scaffold, interior of the scaffold and, the latest addition, the construction of (some) of the city landmarks (see my three essays on the geometry of the Rosette folio) I have some ideas to follow up on these and do more ‘constructive’ (literally) work on how the Rosette folio evolved.