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+--- Thread: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all (/thread-653.html)
Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - ReneZ - 23-07-2016
Many people have considered the rosettes image to represent a map. Some suggest that the entire collection of circles is a map, while others concentrate on one of the circles. Known propositions of this type are from Diane O'Donovan, Nick Pelling, Jürgen Wastl and D. Feger, J.K. Petersen and from Marco Ponzi, but there are many more similar suggestions that predate all of these.
There could be a tendency to believe, by the sheer number of these suggestions, that there is indeed most probably a map here, but I am of a rather different opinion. I do not believe it is a map. For me it is something more abstract.
D'Imperio already implied that it could be some kind of synthesis of the author's vision of the 'cosmos' and I find this idea attractive.
I always had the feeling that the circles in the rosettes diagram refer to the individual circles in the remainder of the 'cosmological' part of the MS. A complete one-to-one mapping has not yet been achieved but there are a number of clear parallels. I know others have had the same idea. I still think there is more to be said and discovered about this. Note that the set of cosmological drawings we have may not be complete.
But I also have a much more specific hypothesis. Of course I can't prove it, just like nobody can prove that the illustration is a map. If I could, I would not be writing it here, in this way.
Let me present the pros and cons of this hypothesis.
First of all, I believe that the central circle represents the sky. I already mentioned it before. The sky is like a plane or sheet with stars held up by six towers.
The upper right circle I believe represents the Earth. Most of the buildings are in or near this circle, and just outside it is a T-O map. There is more to be said, but let me keep it short.
That leaves 7 circles......
These 7 circles could represent the seven planets.
They could also be associated with the 7 week days and 7 metals.
(Nick Pelling suggests in his book - I believe - that the individual circles in the cosmological section might refer to the planets, so this is a close parallel, if the above-mentioned mapping between individual circles and the rosettes image is real).
Now if this is right, can we decide which circle is which planet / week day / metal? Let me add the mapping first. I also add the association with the humours, but I am not sure if these are uniquely identified.
Moon - Monday - Silver - Cold and moist
Sun - Sunday - Gold - Hot and dry
Mercury - Wednesday - Quicksilver - ?
Venus - Friday - Copper - Cold and moist
Mars - Tuesday - Iron - Hot and dry
Jupiter - Thursday - Tin - Hot and moist
Saturn - Saturday - Lead - Cold and dry
I know of one MS where the planets and weekdays are represented by circles (though much more simple ones), namely Augsburg MS Ludwig XII 8. It is available digitally ad You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and I add the links for Mars and Tuesday below.
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Only if a convincing mapping between the 7 circles and the 7 planets / weekdays can be made, will this hypothesis gain considerable weight. How can we do that? It would be good to have more examples like MS Ludwig XII 8.
Furthermore, we still have three more small items in the corners of the rosettes diagram (beside the T-O map).
In the lower-left corner there is the symbol that has been compared to a clock. For me, this is a reference to f67v2.
It also looks like a symbol for a metal, possibly, but not necessarily Quicksilver or Mercury. This needs to be confirmed, of course, in particular if such symbols were already used in the early 15th Century.
Beside that we have two sun faces, and here we encounter our biggest problem. Had we had one sun and one moon, we would be 2 down, 5 to go, but we don't. There's a minor hope that one of the two could be a Moon after all, but a moon with rays like the sun is really very unusual.
Further help in assigning the 7 planets would be if they were ordered somehow according to their humours. The two sun faces could just both mean hot, and we have cold in the other two corners.
There is another important problem, of course.
In the illustration, all circles on the outside are connected to each other, and connected to the sky in the centre.
This implies that the Earth would have a similar 'role' as the other planets, which is quite an unusual concept for the 15th Century of course....
Plenty of work left before this hypothesis gains any weight.....
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - MarcoP - 23-07-2016
(23-07-2016, 10:43 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I know of one MS where the planets and weekdays are represented by circles (though much more simple ones), namely Augsburg MS Ludwig XII 8. It is available digitally ad You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and I add the links for Mars and Tuesday below.
.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Only if a convincing mapping between the 7 circles and the 7 planets / weekdays can be made, will this hypothesis gain considerable weight. How can we do that? It would be good to have more examples like MS Ludwig XII 8.
Hello Rene,
apparently, similar circular diagrams for the planets appear in a "Greek manuscript, 16th century. Venice, Biblioteca Nazionale Marciana". I have see images for only two of the planets (clicking on the images you reach the original pages on gettyimages):
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (Hermes/Mercury, mislabelled "the Moon" on gettyimages)
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (the Sun)
I think these diagrams associate one of the seven planets with each of the 24 hours in the weekday corresponding to the planet illustrated by the diagram.
PS: MS Ludwig XII 8 also seems to associate a planet to each hour of the day. Only, the planets are identified by colors, not the more common symbols that appear in the Greek Marciana ms.
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Searcher - 23-07-2016
Interesting image from Pinterest
![[Image: 2322528e7a7e8ad620c7cbef4da0df91.jpg]](https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/23/22/52/2322528e7a7e8ad620c7cbef4da0df91.jpg)
And You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - MarcoP - 23-07-2016
I initially could not understand what Searcher's post had to do with the subject of the thread, but now I can see some connections (even if I don't know if they are the intended ones).
The "Marciana" diagram includes a T-O map at the top right (as well as another on the left).
The diagram from Arundel MS 501 has the same structure as the MS Ludwig XII 8 weekday diagrams: morning on the left, midday at the top, evening at the right, night at the bottom, split into the 24 hours.
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - MarcoP - 23-07-2016
I would like to add that I only interpreted the lower-left diagram as a map. This was suggested to me by the visual similarity with XV century maps (in particular the Martellus map). I have no definite opinion on the meaning of the page as a whole. I agree on the interpretation of the central canopy as the sky.
![[Image: 5martellus2.jpg]](http://stephenbax.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/5martellus2.jpg)
I also think that the analysis by Juergen and Danielle is not strictly in terms of a World map, but more of a cosmograph, since 4 of the 9 "rosettes" are interpreted as representing the four elements.
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Anton - 23-07-2016
Quote:The upper right circle I believe represents the Earth. Most of the buildings are in or near this circle, and just outside it is a T-O map.
That's an interesting perspective, it did not occur to me that this T-O map may indeed be looked at from this angle.
I think one of the main problems with your suggestion is that some circles are connected with walls. Why would extra-terrestrial objects be interconnected with such terrestrial structures as walls?
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Oocephalus - 23-07-2016
I've also had the idea that the rosettes refer to the spheres of the planets, and/or the layers of heaven that some early Jewish and Christian traditions talk of. See You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. earlier thread (I no longer think a connection to Kabbalah is that likely, as I haven't seen evidence that the Tree of Life diagram existed in the 15th century). As I mentioned in that thread, the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. may be interesting here.
I'm not sure the upper right rosette is the Earth because it in associated with a T-O map, rather the T-O map could represent Earth, and the rosette the lowest heaven, or the sphere of the moon. The Second Book of Enoch mentioned that the lowest heaven contains storehouses of snow, dew etc., which may be why there are buildings drawn in the rosette. The third heaven contains paradise according to the Second Book of Enoch, (it seems the Apostle Paul believed that as well, and consequently so did many early Christians), and Wastl & Feger pointed out that the rectangle in the lower right rosette looks a lot like representations of paradise on medieval maps. If one starts to count at the upper right (earth/lowest heaven), this indeed could be the third one.
As for the symbol on the lower left, it doesn't appear in Gessmann's "You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view." as that of a metal, but was used in a few other meanings. Apparently it most often meant "Aqua vitae" (distillate of alcohol), with the tip pointing downwards.
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - MarcoP - 23-07-2016
(23-07-2016, 05:12 PM)Oocephalus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The third heaven contains paradise according to the Second Book of Enoch, (it seems the Apostle Paul believed that as well, and consequently so did many early Christians), and Wastl & Feger pointed out that the rectangle in the lower right rosette looks a lot like representations of paradise on medieval maps.
About this detail, I think Ellie Velinska is right: the two structures are rectangular tents or baldaquins, with hanging fringes and supporting poles. I can't see how they could be the four rivers of paradise.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
![[Image: voynich+islamic+tent.png]](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-nszJidNTMXU/UTtv8KZzvWI/AAAAAAAAAzM/pZuioSTs0qg/s1600/voynich+islamic+tent.png)
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - R. Sale - 23-07-2016
The central rosette is surrounded by a wolkenband that is based on an embellished version of a nebuly line quite similar in style to the examples found in d' Oresme and de Pizan.
The use of this line, generally, is to separate the mortal from the divine, the earthly from the cosmic. And one might assume that a similar function is performed in this example.
If the Nine Rosettes is a map of the surface of the earth, what other map of earth's surface displays such a feature? Here are the oceans, here is the land, the mountains, the plains, and here is a cosmic boundary - on the surface of the earth. Really??
RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all - Searcher - 23-07-2016
[attachment=423 Wrote:MarcoP pid='4608' dateline='1469285621']I initially could not understand what Searcher's post had to do with the subject of the thread, but now I can see some connections (even if I don't know if they are the intended ones).
The "Marciana" diagram includes a T-O map at the top right (as well as another on the left).
The diagram from Arundel MS 501 has the same structure as the MS Ludwig XII 8 weekday diagrams: morning on the left, midday at the top, evening at the right, night at the bottom, split into the 24 hours.
Sorry, I hadn't time to be more clear.
You understand me correctly concernicng the first image. As for the second, my accent was another, yes, it does not much match this thread, it relates to the folios 67:. Maybe, someone mentioned this earlier: some diagrams on the f67r and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. include pictures of the Sun, the Moon and stars, but some of them look like the Sun without rays and mean the Sun at night full Moon.
Generally, I think that "Rosettes" folio can be called a chart (if not a map) anyway.
Possibly, it partially relates to the f67v2, or, maybe, it is something like You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ... just represented in quite another way.