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More Germanic influences on the VM zodiac (another crossbow human Sagittarius) - david - 17-09-2015
I have come across another Germanic 15th century manuscript which depicts Sagittarius as a human crossbowman. There appears to be quite a 15th century tradition in the area of this sort of depiction by local artists freed from the yokes of traditional imagery.
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RE: More Germanic influences on the VM zodiac (another crossbow human Sagittarius) - -JKP- - 12-01-2016
Thank you for posting your link, David.
I've looked through the Chronicles a number of times and yet the Sagittarius-with-legs that you noted in your article somehow escaped my attention. Although small, it does appear to be a crossbow and, as such, represents a fairly late example.
When I have a free moment, I will cross-link your article in my blog.
I have collected many examples of Scorpio over the last couple of years to try to discern whether there were any specific or identifiable influences on the VM illustrator's Scorpio. I will try to find some time today to upload the examples and notes.
RE: More Germanic influences on the VM zodiac (another crossbow human Sagittarius) - david - 12-01-2016
Someone - I forget who and don't have access to it from here- posted an article in the comments on Stephen Bax's blog about a series of crossbowmen, are these the same ones you mention?
RE: More Germanic influences on the VM zodiac (another crossbow human Sagittarius) - -JKP- - 13-01-2016
I'm not sure if they are, David.
I occasionally glance at the comments on Stephen Bax's blog but haven't had time to read them all. I did see that there were several posts about crossbowmen but they didn't include much geographic context (which I feel is important) and I haven't looked at them in detail to see whether there is a one-to-one correspondence with the ones I've charted. As far as I could tell from glancing at the thumbnails (I would have to double-check to be sure), I had previously located the ones mentioned and a couple more, with the exception of the one you mentioned in the Chronicles.
This morning I posted the chart for Scorpio, as well, and interestingly, discovered that it doesn't follow the same "blueprint" as Sagittarius with legs in terms of dates or geographic distribution:
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RE: More Germanic influences on the VM zodiac (another crossbow human Sagittarius) - david - 13-01-2016
Hi JKP,
That link you posted doesn't work for me, it comes up with an error message.
I agree that geographic context is very interesting for the Sagittarius influence, which I personally feel is more indicative than the Scorpio one.
The reason is that Scorpio tends to degrade into all manner of mythical beasts, as most northern Europeans had no idea of what a scorpion looked like. Instead of staying true to the historic image, it tends to fracture and everyone started making up their own mythical beast for a bit.
But Sagittarius is usually fixed.
In part this is down to the mythology. Chiron the centaur is easy to draw (any fool can put a mans body onto a horse), but the Scorpio myth is so garbled that all we can say is that a big nasty monster was created to bring a God down a peg or two. So the monster tends to evolve, depending on which myth you heard first and what the local tendency was. He's been an eagle and a dragon as well.
So, IMHO, any change to Sagittarius is far more significant than any change to Scorpio. Scorpio is a secondary identification - if we can find a good time/region for Sagittarius, then we look at the other zodiacs for the same time/region to cross reference the link.
RE: More Germanic influences on the VM zodiac (another crossbow human Sagittarius) - Diane - 23-01-2016
I think it very interesting that the earliest example which Marco found is a Polish manuscript (400ca Polish cod. 1842), and that then there is such a substantial gap (almost 2 generations) before the first German one, after which it seems to become the latest fad there.
But it is frustrating not to have that geographic range to put these things into context.
I cannot see anywhere that Marco mentions whether he looked at Byzantine, French, Spanish, North African, Syrian, Armenian etc. and they all came up blank. If so then there is a genuine argument for passage of the idea from Polish-speaking to German-speaking regions. It's a bit early to suppose a manuscript artist "freed from the yoke of tradition". It's more a case of the patron wanting the thing another chap had and which struck him as nicely different.
It might be relevant to mention that in 1409 there was an expulsion [ my source calls is 'a general exodus'] of persons of German lineage from Prague. To judge from the astronomical instruments which subsequently appeared in Nuremberg, astronomical studies in Prague were already pretty sophisticated by then, and the refugees need for money meant that they brought, but then sold, astronomical texts and instruments in the places that they went. This, for example is said by some to be the reason for Nuremberg's suddenly acquiring a reputation in astronomy, and one which brought Regiomontanus later.
It starts about 1427.
I reproduced some of my source when writing two posts about a particular example of the 'cloud band' pattern - one which Don of Talahassee recently found.
If anyone's interested, the first of my posts talks about the image, and why it is so interesting
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The second gives the biography of "Reynardus" of Prague, in Nuremberg. Like Kircher in his own day, Reinhard was thought a genius but has since been almost forgotten.
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PS - for non-Europeans... the link between Prague and Germany is the river Elbe.
RE: More Germanic influences on the VM zodiac (another crossbow human Sagittarius) - nablator - 08-04-2019
Another human Sagittarius with crossbow for the collection. I don't think it was mentioned earlier.
Regimen by Heinrich Laufenberg, Ms. germ. fol. 1191.
Alsace, ca 1460.
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The stars are interesting too. Two stars for Pisces, one star for Scorpio...
EDIT: Marco Ponzi had it in his article already You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: More Germanic influences on the VM zodiac (another crossbow human Sagittarius) - MarcoP - 08-04-2019
(08-04-2019, 04:52 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Another human Sagittarius with crossbow for the collection. I don't think it was mentioned earlier.
Regimen by Heinrich Laufenberg, Ms. germ. fol. 1191.
Alsace, ca 1460.
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The stars are interesting too. Two stars for Pisces, one star for Scorpio...
Hi Nablator,
this Sagittarius was pointed out by Darren Worley You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. See also You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
I mentioned the ms You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and I definitely agree with you
Quote:Another interesting feature of the illustrations is that one or two stars, suggestive of the origin of the zodiac signs as constellations, appear in some of the illustrations; their position is largely consistent with that of similar stars in the Voynic[h] zodiac.
RE: More Germanic influences on the VM zodiac (another crossbow human Sagittarius) - Gioynich - 08-02-2021
I think I haven't seen this one before? Not particularly similar to the Voynich's, but crossbow sagittarii are pretty rare and I hadn't seen one from Poland before.
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![[Image: Screen-Shot-2021-02-07-at-11-02-01-PM.png]](https://i.ibb.co/2ND06Fd/Screen-Shot-2021-02-07-at-11-02-01-PM.png)
RE: More Germanic influences on the VM zodiac (another crossbow human Sagittarius) - MarcoP - 08-02-2021
Thank you, Gioynich!
In 2015 I discussed a very similar image You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (ONB Cod.1842).
The ONB manuscript is catalogued as Horae canonicae in Polonia Scriptae (Canonical Hours written in Poland) and the ONB site says it is from Breslau or Prague.
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See You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for a discussion of the dating.
The whole zodiac series in Mf.2813 is so close to that in Cod.1842 (at least the few signs I have seen) that I think that one of the two might have been copied from the other.
The library site you linked ("dokument" tab) says that Mf.2813 was created in 1422 (czas powstania:1422, Göber, t. 3, s. 252). Indeed, the first page contains a table of years starting from 1422 (written as m.cccc.xxii). This could well be the earliest crossbow Sagittarius that has been found so far.