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+--- Thread: "ma+" on f116v marginalia (/thread-644.html)
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"ma+" on f116v marginalia - Sam G - 18-07-2016
I know I've seen the "ma+" bit that shows up on the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. marginalia a few times. Here's an example I just came across:
The manuscript I got this from is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., fol. 119v. The record says Southern German, mid 15th century. It can be found here (and it has more examples of the "ma+"):
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It really seems like this aspect of the VMS marginalia ought to be a known thing. Can anyone look at this manuscript and determine what it means?
RE: "ma+" on f116v marginalia - Koen G - 18-07-2016
Wow, that seems like a relevant find, Sam. There are also some other aspects on that page that remind one of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. marginalia. For example, the "et" between some words looks like it could easily evolve into a large "+" sign. There's also circles drawn next to the text. Even the layout of one block of text seems similar to the VM marginalia.
I really think you're on to something. I can't say right away what the ma+ means, but it should be possible to find out.
Also, the word "felix" appears very often - another similarity.
RE: "ma+" on f116v marginalia - -JKP- - 18-07-2016
(18-07-2016, 07:10 PM)Sam G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I know I've seen the "ma+" bit that shows up on the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. marginalia a few times. Here's an example I just came across:
The manuscript I got this from is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., fol. 119v. The record says Southern German, mid 15th century. It can be found here (and it has more examples of the "ma+"):
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
It really seems like this aspect of the VMS marginalia ought to be a known thing. Can anyone look at this manuscript and determine what it means?
In the VMS version, it looks to me like it originally was written "maria" and the + was added in. I don't think it's an abbreviation in the VMS, as it is in the Pal.Lat. 1369 example. I think it's a plus sign the same as the other plus signs (which were used in charms to signal each place where you genuflect to add "power" to the charm).
RE: "ma+" on f116v marginalia - Sam G - 18-07-2016
I just did a search and it turns out Marco Ponzi is already on to this manuscript - apparently the Gemini depiction most similar to the VMS example known is found in it:
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There definitely seems to be a connection of some sort. Probably this manuscript and the VMS were created around the same time and place.
Incidentally, the Warburg Institute Iconographic Database (which I just found out about today and where I found this manuscript) is a total gold mine, if you don't know about it:
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RE: "ma+" on f116v marginalia - -JKP- - 18-07-2016
(18-07-2016, 07:46 PM)Sam G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I just did a search and it turns out Marco Ponzi is already on to this manuscript - apparently the Gemini depiction most similar to the VMS example known is found in it:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
There definitely seems to be a connection of some sort. Probably this manuscript and the VMS were created around the same time and place.
Incidentally, the Warburg Institute Iconographic Database (which I just found out about today and where I found this manuscript) is a total gold mine, if you don't know about it:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
They probably were. Together with the style and basic content, both the Pal. Lat. manuscript and the marginalia in the VMS are in Gothic Cursive script which was popular in England, the Lombardic areas, Allemannic and Tirolian areas, and a bit of western Austria and eastern France in the late 14th and 15th centuries.
RE: "ma+" on f116v marginalia - Sam G - 18-07-2016
(18-07-2016, 07:38 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In the VMS version, it looks to me like it originally was written "maria" and the + was added in. I don't think it's an abbreviation in the VMS, as it is in the Pal.Lat. 1369 example. I think it's a plus sign the same as the other plus signs (which were used in charms to signal each place where you genuflect to add "power" to the charm).
Maybe it's not the same thing. But it looks like the + in the VMS was not added later since there's a space left for it. In any case I'd still like to know what the ma+ means in the Pal. Lat. 1369 example.
RE: "ma+" on f116v marginalia - -JKP- - 18-07-2016
(18-07-2016, 07:51 PM)Sam G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(18-07-2016, 07:38 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In the VMS version, it looks to me like it originally was written "maria" and the + was added in. I don't think it's an abbreviation in the VMS, as it is in the Pal.Lat. 1369 example. I think it's a plus sign the same as the other plus signs (which were used in charms to signal each place where you genuflect to add "power" to the charm).
Maybe it's not the same thing. But it looks like the + in the VMS was not added later since there's a space left for it. In any case I'd still like to know what the ma+ means in the Pal. Lat. 1369 example.
The space is just as big between the i and the last a and nothing is added in there. The + in "maria" is above the line, the other plus signs are in line.
I'll look at the original document and see what the Latin abbreviation means. Back in a few...
RE: "ma+" on f116v marginalia - Koen G - 18-07-2016
I've been referring to those manuscripts for a while now as well. This one is also interesting because it gives female genitalia to some male figures. In the paper I'm writing now, I'm comparing Voynich images to those found in the early (9thC) Aratea.
I think the ma+ is an abbreviation for "magnitude", and what we are dealing with is an abbreviated description of stars. I think the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. marginalia might be the same. Perhaps the copyist had a Latin Al Sufi and copied something from it as a pen test.
There's also the word "fixta" (fixed stars) which might well be abbreviated to "fix"
This is huge.
RE: "ma+" on f116v marginalia - -JKP- - 18-07-2016
(18-07-2016, 07:54 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(18-07-2016, 07:51 PM)Sam G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(18-07-2016, 07:38 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In the VMS version, it looks to me like it originally was written "maria" and the + was added in. I don't think it's an abbreviation in the VMS, as it is in the Pal.Lat. 1369 example. I think it's a plus sign the same as the other plus signs (which were used in charms to signal each place where you genuflect to add "power" to the charm).
Maybe it's not the same thing. But it looks like the + in the VMS was not added later since there's a space left for it. In any case I'd still like to know what the ma+ means in the Pal. Lat. 1369 example.
The space is just as big between the i and the last a and nothing is added in there. The + in "maria" is above the line, the other plus signs are in line.
I'll look at the original document and see what the Latin abbreviation means. Back in a few...
Okay, I'm back... it's inci with a raised t which stands for incipit ("begins") in Latin.
RE: "ma+" on f116v marginalia - Sam G - 18-07-2016
(18-07-2016, 07:59 PM)-JKP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Okay, I'm back... it's inci with a raised t which stands for incipit ("begins") in Latin.
Thanks... that does make sense, given that the word is written out in full in some of the other paragraphs. This has me wondering if the VMS example also says "incipit", although perhaps that's a stretch.